What If... German Uniforms?

Peter_Suciu

Peter_Suciu

Well-known member
OK, I'm an avid reader of alternate history, so called "What If" and most of the focus is typically on the political landscape. Had Germany won WWI Europe would have been very different.

But how do you think this would have effected the German military and their uniforms? Was the pickelhaube dead by 1918, even if Germany won? No doubt the steel helmet would have remained in use, but what about for officers and parades?
 
Peter: I will play your game of What If. I think that the hauben would have remained for officers on parade. We see many post war pics of officers wearing their pickelhauben on state occaisions. Regarding a German victory on the political scene. I would venture to say, large reparations for the French with reduced military forces. This is what happened in 1870, at least with reparations. In the east, obviously they had already annexed huge territories as a result of the Treaty of Breast Litovsk. No Hitler, no reason for Hitler as there would not have been a Treaty of Versailles.
What to do with the Brits??? I see them going it alone just as in WW2. I do not see the technology existing for a naval invasion. Besides, the War at Sea was won by the Brits. The German surface ships did little after Jutland. Perhaps an attempt to starve them out with U-Boats? Bomber raids as in WW2? Remember the Brits also have Canada, Australia etc etc. Perhaps a breathing period for both sides before going at it again. Perhaps nothing if the Germans are occupied with their new eastern territory. Traditionally, the British can not accept one country dominating the continent though.
Of interest, would be what to do with the Kaiser. Ludendorf and Hindenburg were running the country by mid war. The Kaiser was a figure head and had never proven to be the great war lord, the role he loved to play. What if..... an interesting game to play. Brian
 
Very good points. England did tend to play "you didn't conquer us, and this may take a while but eventually we'll be on the winning side" game a few times. And I think you are correct.

Germany would certain dominate in the East. But I see that Russian Revolution spiralling out of control. A victory in 1918, especially AFTER America entered the war but before troops arrived in mass, could be a problem. Germany would defeat France, have to settle with the Americans and would be facing a Civil War in the East.

After 1916 it was a horrible situation for Germany. And victory also means that Germany would have likely had to further prop up Austria. Bismarck warned not to go there, but that's exactly what would have been needed. Otherwise you just end up with a victorious, but exhausted Germany, surrounded by revolutions and civil wars!

So Wilhelm III, would he have worn a pickelhaube as Kaiser? Or would he have stuck with the peaked cap!
 
Ahhh... the game continues. Yes I see the Crown Prince in a pickelhaube. Really when one thinks of it...what is more fashionable or classy the stahlhelm or the pickelhaube. The choice is simple if one comes from the aristocratic background. The stahlhelme is so plebeian so cold and functional. It has no style. The visor cap is ok for everyday it has colour but on those special occaisions where you really want to strut your stuff......give me the haube every time! Especially on those windy days with the trichter flowing in the breeze...makes you look even taller!!
The Crown Prince had the reputation of being a playboy and did die a dissolute in the arms of his mistress. My impression is that during the war the corps he commanded did make progress. He was respected as a commander. Not like Ruprecht of Bavaria but better than the Kaiser.
Really with the Kaiser retired to Hoose Doorn (spelling?) what other life did he have before him other than to spend daddy's money, drink, screw and gamble?
German victory in France, the AEF would have been defeated as well as the BEF and CEF another Dunkirk ?? Evacuate all remaining troops to Britain if possible. Escape and regroup. How would the American people have responded to a defeat? No one likes to be beat but do we send more US troops and stage a build up for a future invasion by sea as in 1945? Is there public support for this in the States?
Hmm.... Austria. The Arch Duke and Sophie have been shot, Franz Joeseph dies. The grandnephew (thanks Peter) and his wife are Liberal in their political leanings. This could be a problem. With a victory the General Staff would have even more influence in Germany and be more than willing to meddle in Austrian affairs. God knows it was the German re enforcements that kept Austria in the war and saved them from deafeat by the Italians.
I see trouble here, the Germans would not support Liberal reforms in Austria but to depose a legitimate heir to the Austrian throne?? Better to encourage the competing nationalities within the Austrian Empire so that the new Emperor and his wife are on shaky grounds. Thus, they can not introduce Liberal reforms for fear that they lose everything. A very complex situation. Bismark knew that if any war was to occur it would come out of the Balkans which means Austria's sphere of influence.

Peter, you began the game what do you think hapened with a German visctory in WW1?? I am boring everyone I am sure. It is your turn Peter or better still lets have some other players come and speculate. I am always open to correction from those more knowledgeable. Brian
 
Good stuff Brian. But one point. Emperor Karl of Austria was grand nephew, not grandson. Now here was a man who never expected to be much of anything but a minor royal. I recall he was eating lunch when news came that his Uncle Franz Ferdinand had been assassinated.

Karl and his wife were quite shaken by the murder of the Czar in 1918 too. Considering that Karl's Great Uncle Maximilian (brother of Franz Josef) was shot by a Mexican firing squad, his aunt Empress Elizabeth (wife of Franz Josef) was assassinated by an Italian anarchist and his uncle Archduke Rudolft (Franz Josef's only son) committed suicide under strange circumstances, I would say he had some reason to fear for his life


Anyone else care to weigh in?
 
Thanks Peter, I made the change. I am going straight from memory here no references close to hand. The murder of the Csar and his family also opens up the topic of whether the English king could have saved his relatives. There are those that maintian (and I am among them) that WW1 shaped the History of the world for many, many years to come.
Once years ago, I had my students play this game only it involved the Germans winning WW2. Lets keep that one for another time. Brian
 
Sadly the Czar should have been allowed to go into exile, but the Allies didn't want him as they were afraid the revolution could have spread.

You should have your students watch Nicholas and Alexandria. There is the great scene where the ambassadors of England and France are urging Krensky to arrest Lenin. Krensky refuses and says, "he hasn't done anything. We have laws in this country."

Not to sound too much like an ultra-conservative, but the arrest of that one trouble maker could have made all the difference in the world!

Then again the Czar's secret police weren't so nice either. There is another great scene in The Fall of Eagles. The head of the secret police is looking at photos of revolutionaries in 1905 and says to his assistant, "I think you arrested and killed the wrong man. This is his brother."

His assistant replies, "we'll get on it today. We'll find him."

The head of the secret police says, "no, wait until the funeral. Our trouble maker is bound to be there."
 
Brian made a great point at the beginning, no Hitler! The Germans were interested in peace before 1918, but no one seemed to want to make peace with them. If (and that's what we're playing) a peace could have been made, say in 1917, perhaps the Kaiser would have stayed. Or perhaps he would have been allowed to abdicate and his son take the throne. Who knows.

As for the pickelhaube/stahlhelm question, I see it as developing kind of like the modern UK army and the Guards Brigade. Eventually, only the guards regiments (and perhaps general officers) would have had the pickelhaube for palace guard duty and parades, all the regular troops would be wearing caps, berets, stahlhelms or something, but probably not the pickelhaube. In these modern times, haubes are just too flashy and are best left for ceremonial duties. At least that's my two cents worth! :D
 
Liongules said:
Brian made a great point at the beginning, no Hitler!
Click to expand...

Go back further. When has one death from cancer conceivably caused 65 million deaths?

(15 million in W.W.1 and 50 million in W.W.II).
 
Hi T;
A bit of a riddle but I would say you are talking about the death of Wilhelm II's father from throat cancer. I forget his name but he was an avid cigar smoker. He ruled..what was it something like 6 months or less ?? From what I have read, I doubt that the kaisers father would have gotten embroiled in WW1 although he was no friend of Bismarks either.
Thus, if the father had not died of cancer...no Kaiser at least not until later, no WW1 and then no Hitler. The Kaisers' father was known to be refom minded perhaps courtesey of his being married to one of Queen Victorias' daughters. The Kaiser did not appreciate reform and was closer to his grandfather. He always wore the aigulette on his uniforms as a sign of respect and rememberance of his service to the grandfather Wilhelm I. Let me know if I am correct. Brian
 
Hi Brian--
Sorry... got the know it all hat on again (pointy hat):

You're thinking of Kaiser Frederick I or King Frederick III of Prussia, and his wife was Princess Victoria, known as Vicky. Wilhelm I of Germany died in March 1888 and lived about 90 days. He was in a coma I believe about half of that time.

No doubt that if Kaiser Frederick I lived longer he would have reformed the country. Bismarck would have been forced into a retirement a few years earlier and likely Germany's main rivals would still remain France and Russia, but without pushing England into their camp.

And to Tony's point, I think you can safely add another 10million easily, as Lenin may have died in Switzerland and Russia may have avoided a horrific Civil War. Possible that the Czar would have had to accept a constitutional monarchy, but even if he did not I doubt that Crown Prince Alexander would have lived to adulthood. The Russian throne would have gone to the Czar's uncle, a man who was a more likely reformer.

And maybe those paintings by Hitler would have actually sold!
 
Yes, I think the death of that one man, Kaiser Freidrich II altered world history. As a Army commander in the Franco-Preußen war he was experienced to the effects of war and was a highly skilled statesman.

His death led to Wilhelm II who dismissed Bismarck in March 1890 and initiated subsequent German foreign policy initiatives (notably the initiation of a large battle fleet under the naval laws of 1898 and 1900) which drove Britain into diplomatic alignment (the Entente) with a Franco-Russian alliance already in the offing at the time of Bismarck's fall. The build up of the High Seas Fleet is the primary reason why the UK did not maintain alliance with the German Confederation, allied as they had always been against their common enemy, France.

The invasion on Serbia by Austria might have lasted only weeks and evaporated. No first world war, no anger and resentment leading to a second world war, no holocaust, no genocide in Bosnia, and there would most likely be a monarchy in Germany today.


I remember standing in Doorn two years ago with my nose pressed against the glass of a small frame that held Freidrich's 1870 EK1 and thinking; "why did you have to die?".
 
(I'm only joking of course)

But Tony, without WWI and WWII think of all the stuff we wouldn't have to collect. You're not thinking to the little people.

Guys like Tom Wittmann might have to work instead of selling overpriced SS honor daggers! There would be no MAX Show!

And all the fakers in Eastern Europe selling German paratroopers helmets for $2000! And the reenactors! What would have they have to reenact!
 
Hi Peter,
I realize that you are joking, but you were also asuming that in the past century, no one would have done anything to start some other conflict. In answer to the question about Pickelhauben still being used, the answer can be found in the dress head gear in use by the British Military during special events, where spiked and plumed helmets can still be seen.
Best wishes
Gus
 
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