Württemberg Grenadier V/S Württemberg Pionier

argonne

argonne

Well-known member
Gentlemen,
today, I have following question:
Does somebody know if Württemberg Grenadier and Württemberg Pionier helmets were absolutely identical?
Larcade wrote they were. But in Joachim Hilsenbeck book "Deutsche Offiziershelme aus der Kaiserzeit" Band 1, page 193, a Württemberg pionier officer helmet is clearly shown with silver rosettes on brass chinscales. ( Preussen, Baden, Sachsen and Bayern Pionier helmets all have those silver rosettes too).
Gentlemen, does somebody of you have in his collection a Württ. PB13 Pionier officer helmet or a GR119 / GR 123 officer Haube to compare the color of rosettes?
I have in my possession a Württ. Reserve Senior NCO helmet with silver fittings and brass chinscales + brass rosettes. (please see pict at the bottom of topic). Does the color of the rosettes classify it as Grenadier or Pionier Haube? Does some of you already have seen a Württ. Pionier with brass rosettes or a Württ. Grenadier with silver rosettes?
Philippe :salute:

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Regarding all three of the helmets you mention, the furniture is all silver with a flat brass chin scale and a silver rosette.
Good luck
Jim Turinetti
[email protected]
(email address)
www.kaiserhelmets.com
(web site for my books - please visit)
 
My understanding is that Württemberg Grenadier and Infanterie with silver fittings used gilt Rosettes, and Pionier helmets wore silver.

Württemberg Pionier followed the Preussen, Baden, Sachsen and Bayern Pionier helmets who also used silver rosettes as you mentioned.

That would make your helmet Grenadier-Regt. Königin Olga (1.Württembergisches) Nr.119 or Grenadier-Regt. König Karl (5.Württembergisches) Nr.123. as in my M1871 below.

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My JR 119 private purchase OR helmet....with proper white horse hair trichter has all silver fittings with flat brass chinscales and brass rosettes. This helmet is pre 1891 as the scales are of the old bolt on type. The bolts on my helmet are exactly like Tony's with a domed slotted head on them. I will post a pic on the week end. The helmet lacks the silk liner but has a complete officer style sweat band. Didier Laine ....Larmee Allemande en 1914, pg 74 shows OR helmet with all silver fittings and brass chinscales plus rosettes. The officer diagram shows... silver fittings with brass stars and brass scales and brass rosettes. White parade trichter.
 
Thank you Gentlemen, for those explanations.
Now I know my helmet could not be a PB 13 helmet as the seller told me as I bought it last sommer, but a GR119 or 123 Haube.

I was not sure till now, because as Larcade wrote in his Tome I, page 146, "the Mannschafts and Offiziers PB13 helmets were abolutely similar to the GR119 helmets, but wore no Haarbusch". (Note that GR 123 is not mentioned by Larcade...?). In the same book, page 105, a GR119/123 officer helmet can be seen (last one on the right side of the pict). It seems that the rosettes are silver there...(but bad to see...).
Joachim Hilsenbeck also writes, page 195, Band 1, "Württemberg Pioniere helmets are identical to Württ. Grenadier helmets". In the same book, page 159, it also seems that the pictured GR119/123 officer helmet is wearing silver rosettes.. ( hard to see again, as by Larcade...).

The german wording or better, its interpretation also brings a little bit confusion:
"Silberne Beschläge (silver fittings), goldene Sternschrauben (gilt officer stars) und vergoldeten flachen Schuppenketten (flat gilt chinscales)". Well, those specific parts called rosettes, are they belonging to "Beschläge" or to "Schuppenketten"???? To my knowledge, it´s still not really clear....
That´s the reason why I asked for picts to have the possibility to compare. Thank you Tony. Brian, I´m curious about your helmet!

Philippe :salute:
 
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