Need help with 2 Pickelhauben

[Frookst]

Hello everyone, I'm new here and I want to get an original Pickelhaube obviously.

I have found 2 different ones on Ebay (One supposedly original prussian one and one supposedly original württembergian one) and I'm unsure if any of them are real or fake
I'd appreciate your help!
Thanks in advance!

 

[Sandmann]

Hello and welcome to the Forum.
Both helmets seems to be original M1895 with missing cockades and chinstraps. Especially the latter one is hard to find, but there are repro parts that you could use first. However, I would wait for a complete helmet.

 

[b.loree]

Welcome to the forum. Both helmets are original with no problems except for the missing pieces mentioned by Sandy. The Wurttemberg helmet is quite rare here in N America and has great markings. FR = Fuilier Regiment 122 which is totally correct and is a bonus. Matching helmet with correct markings is always good! The missing chin straps and cockades are very common problems. Original replacements are expensive but most of us have to put up with reproductions……at least we have the helmets. I would buy both especially the Wurttemberg which is in great condition with complete liner and markings.

 

[Frookst]

Thank you for your reply, do you think its possible to get also only original cockades and chin straps somehow?

Plus, is it normal, that for the württembergian one, that I don't see the year, when it was produced? Also what does the 4 inside the helmet mean by any chance?

And for the prussian, that it has no stamps at all?

(Unless I am actually blind haha)

Also, I'm not from North America actually!!! I am from Germany (which is why i reply now so late, im sorry for that) and found the Württemberg one actually very close to me for around 600 Euros. Which is why I am very keen on getting that one!

 

[Frookst]

Hello and welcome to the Forum.
Both helmets seems to be original M1895 with missing cockades and chinstraps. Especially the latter one is hard to find, but there are repro parts that you could use first. However, I would wait for a complete helmet.

Thank you for your reply! Is there a site or video or could you maybe explain me how I know if chinstrap and cockades are original if I'd find any?

If possible, I would like to get the Württemberg one, since its the one from my state, but a complete helmet would be obviously nicer and now I'm unsure if I should actually wait for a complete one or not

 

[stuka f]

hello and welcome.
Chinstraps are hard to find, and you 'll have to pay 300 to 400 euro if one appears.
Cockades are more commoun, from 50 to 100 euro.

 

[Frookst]

Thanks, I'll then try to look out for some cockades first, but also keep the chinstraps in the back of my mind

 

[2nd.Leibhusar]

I would wait for a complete helmet.
Also the helmet plate has a completely different color than the rest of the parts, in my opinion.
Now you make the (understandable beginners) mistake of buying a cheap helmet and wanting to build it up.
On average a Reichskokarde costs 80 to 90 euros and a Württemberg 100+... IF you are lucky enough to find an original chin strap 300-400 euros (and then just hope it fits )...
In the end you will have a kit of original parts left, in the best case....
So again, my advice, wait and save until you can buy a piece that you can look at with pleasure for the rest of your life.

 

[Frookst]

Hm, maybe you're right, but how will I know if a helmet has original chinstraps and cockades?

Well, I suppose I can just ask you all if I'm unsure, you all seem to know what you're talking about.

Would it be an issue if I ask about a Pickelhaube every now and then?
I don't want to annoy you guys

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello,
Also from me a warm welcome to the forum.
I have a slightly different opinion.
These 2 helmets are very good, in good condition. Admittedly, some satellite accessories are missing, namely the roundels and chinstrap. These parts are often missing, and when you buy a complete helmet, you can never be sure that these removable accessories are original to the helmet. Many helmets currently on the market have composite roundels and chinstraps.
The problem is that a ‘Prussian’ without a regimental number, roundel or chinstrap is worth 400€ maximum in France, while a Württemberg with number FR122 is worth 500 maximum.

There is still the problem of identifying copy or genuine roundels, and M91 chinstraps with brass fittings. On this point, you need to be particularly vigilant and experienced, as some reproductions are formidable. On the Internet, you can find roundels for 15€ and chinstraps for 30€, sold as copies. Then things get complicated, when ‘counterfeiters’ artificially age them to resell them for 10 times as much.
I've done 2 ‘guide files’ on the French forum ‘Histoire et militaria -La grande Guerre’ on copies of roundels and chinstraps.
In any case, the problem remains the same for a neophyte. I often see amateurs buying very expensive helmets with composite tips, with ‘copy’ roundels and chinstraps, but sold as entirely authentic and untouched.

The flashy front plate is even a quality feature. As Ottodog8 said, the wappen were gold-plated, unlike the other trim, which therefore ‘patina’. If the patina of the wappen is the same as the rest, it means that it was never gilded, or that the gilding has disappeared through polishing.
The same applies to nickel silver fittings, where the wappen remains white if treated with Berlin white, or blackened if silver-plated.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

As far as parts for spiked helmets are concerned, ‘Ne le dis à personne’ or ‘les Valois’, which are the pseudonyms of the same seller, has been dismantling dozens of spiked helmets for many years and offering the parts on E-bay. The roundels and chinstraps are usually authentic (with rare exceptions).

 

[Lars13]

Hi Frookst,
Also from me a warm welcome to the forum.
Imo the first helmet you buy doesn't need to be in a very good condition or complete, but it should then also not cost so much. This will give you the opportunity to study the helmet construction and "feel", and is a great help in identifying repro / fake when buying subsequent helmets.
Regards,
Lars

 

[Lars13]

I've done 2 ‘guide files’ on the French forum ‘Histoire et militaria -La grande Guerre’ on copies of roundels and chinstraps.

Hi Clovis,
Could you post a link please? I struggle bigtime with identifying original Kokarde.
Regards,
Lars

 

[ottodog8]

What a tough crowd. If it is reasonably priced, I would jump on that Wurttemberg helmet in a heartbeat. The outstanding condition of that helmet greatly outweighs the lack of chinstrap and kokardes. The wappen is a different color because it has never been polished and retains its original gilding, the hemet is essentially unissued.

 

[Steve Nick]

I would grab the Wurttemburg helmet. It's in good shape, and it's marked to a desirable Fusilier regiment. Wurttemburg helmets are the least common of the four Kingdoms.

Missing Kokarden and chinstraps are so common that as Brian said, most collectors just accept that as being something that can't be helped.

Personally, I wouldn't bypass a helmet like this if it had a good quality repo chinstrap and Kokarden. Certainly, an equivalent helmet with completely original parts will command a premium. If you want to wait for one of those helmets and pay the premium, it's a personal choice.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hi Clovis,
Could you post a link please? I struggle bigtime with identifying original Kokarde.
Regards,
Lars

With pleasure:

guide - GUIDE: LES COCARDES : identification COPIES/AUTHENTIQUES

guide bonjour, A la demande de quelques uns qui n'ont pas trouvé leur bonheur dans les différentes rubriques, et au vu de quelques posts maintenant anciens et

lagrandeguerre.1fr1.net

guide - GUIDE : LES JUGULAIRES M91/95/15: modèles,diversités de fabrication, et copies

guide Bonjour, suite à la vente de la très belle jugulaire "lourde" non évidée en maillechort de ce jour, je voudrais vous rappeler quelques différences entre

lagrandeguerre.1fr1.net

This winter, when I have a bit more time, I'll try to reproduce the same 2 guides here on this forum.

 

[Frookst]

As far as parts for spiked helmets are concerned, ‘Ne le dis à personne’ or ‘les Valois’, which are the pseudonyms of the same seller, has been dismantling dozens of spiked helmets for many years and offering the parts on E-bay. The roundels and chinstraps are usually authentic (with rare exceptions).

Thank you for your answer, I should probably check that out, also if I got it right I should get the helmet and trust that I get authentic ones?

Also you are actually very close with the prices and how much they cost, the prussian one costs 400 euros, but the Württemberg one is a bit more expensive with 700 euros.
Should I still get it? Or would I be somewhere else be able to get it for 500?

 

[Frookst]

Hi Frookst,
Also from me a warm welcome to the forum.
Imo the first helmet you buy doesn't need to be in a very good condition or complete, but it should then also not cost so much. This will give you the opportunity to study the helmet construction and "feel", and is a great help in identifying repro / fake when buying subsequent helmets.
Regards,
Lars

Thank you for your reply and that's an interesting way of seeing it, but I don't plan on getting that many pickelhauben, my plan would be, if the budget is good enough, to get a Württemberg and a Prussian one.

Although you are still right and if I get one now that it could probably help me with the second one in the future!

 

[Frookst]

What a tough crowd. If it is reasonably priced, I would jump on that Wurttemberg helmet in a heartbeat. The outstanding condition of that helmet greatly outweighs the lack of chinstrap and kokardes. The wappen is a different color because it has never been polished and retains its original gilding, the hemet is essentially unissued.

Hm I'm very keen on getting that one, but do you think 700 is still reasonable for it though?
If I had good arguments I could maybe haggle a bit with the seller

 

[Frookst]

I would grab the Wurttemburg helmet. It's in good shape, and it's marked to a desirable Fusilier regiment. Wurttemburg helmets are the least common of the four Kingdoms.

Missing Kokarden and chinstraps are so common that as Brian said, most collectors just accept that as being something that can't be helped.

Personally, I wouldn't bypass a helmet like this if it had a good quality repo chinstrap and Kokarden. Certainly, an equivalent helmet with completely original parts will command a premium. If you want to wait for one of those helmets and pay the premium, it's a personal choice.

I think I might get the Württemberg one, if no one else gets it before me, if I find someday one with kokarden and kinnriemen I'll maybe get that one in future