Prussian flag ring of the standard of the Ulanen Regiment Graf zu Dohna - East Prussian No. 8
- Thread starter Eichenblatt
- Start date
Eichenblatt
Active member
Hello,
Steve, will it be a problem for you if I ask for close-up photographs of some of your magnificent regimental banner rings?
Best regards.
Piotr
Jeff R
Well-known member
Agreed - this is an outstanding thread with a ton of esoteric knowledge on exceptionally rare pieces. Thanks for posting Steve (and Piotr)!
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Hello Piotr
I will see what I can do per your request
They are under glass and at 83 years old with arthritics
I don't do much with the collection anymore
I will try and get my son to help me
I don't know how good I might be with close up of the rings
but I know that I have photos of my Grenadier Regt 9 / Fusilier Batl ring
also I can scan the photos from the Kube 1999 auction catalog
where some of my rings came from
I will work on this in time
Many thanks for your interest
For now here is my G R 9 / F B ring on the pole
awarded to the flag because the Fahnentrager was killed in action
with the flag in his hands during the Franco -Prussian War
and also the 1870-71 KDM streamer with their battle honors
Steve
Eichenblatt
Active member
Dear Steve,
I am extremely grateful, thank you very much for devoting your valuable time and vast knowledge.
Thank you once again.
With respect.
Piotr
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Piotr
Now I am working on the Kube auction for you.
This was 1999 . Bids were still in DM. ( The good old days !)
Some of the photos were in B & W
This was the first time that flags and their parts were up for auction
The first original Fahna rings to be offered.
The auction was held up for a while as the German Government claimed
ownership of the lots.
Kube hired a lawyer and won the case
The auction was held, and the lots were sold.
That was the last legal battle over the flags.
Here is the cover of the auction catalog
and the first 2 rings offered
I did not win either of thses two.
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Eichenblatt
Active member
Steve,
that must have been an incredible auction!
Phenomenal artifacts and insane bidding!
Where did those golden days for collectors......seem to be irretrievably gone.
Thank you.
Piotr
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Once that an individual one-of-a-kind flag ring for any given specific regiment battalion goes into a collection, they normally remain with the collector for the rest of their lifetime. That may mean that a flag ring does not become available for purchase for maybe 50 years, more or less in time, depending upon when it was acquired. Those "golden days for collectors" very seldom occur when one of these flag rings comes up for sale, let alone several of them becoming available at one given time, such as what occurred with the Kube auction in 1999. We are all simply temporary caretakers for the items in our collections, and barring loss by fire, theft, or any sort of damage, everything eventually becomes available again to another collector at some point down the road in time.
Best Wishes,
Alan
Best Wishes,
Alan
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Thanks Steve, for sharing images of these incredible items in your amazing collection, as well as those that were offered for sale in the Kube auction.
Best Wishes,
Alan
Best Wishes,
Alan
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Alan
Thanks
I hope to get photos of my rings this weekend
if I can work in-between the college football
and the NFL football games on Saturday & Sunday
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Ah, this makes total sense as to why the German government was trying to block the sale of these regimental flag rings. Thanks Steve, for revealing this important background information. Obviously, I am not a lawyer, but I can understand that the German Government felt that the flag rings still belonged to the German State and thus their reason for trying to block their sale via Kube's auction house.
My guess here is that someone came upon the long-forgotten presence of the rings that had been hidden away from the advancing Russian military horde, and whoever discovered these items hidden away for decades, simply laid claim to them. In other words, "finder's keepers" and whoever it was that found them, realized they might have some value, and thus brought them in for Kube to sell for them.
In my humble opinion, I'm actually a bit surprised that the German government lost the case to the claim on the regimental flag rings and regimental flag parts. I can understand the German Government believing that their claim to say that the flag rings still belonged to the German State. My guess is that there is probably some statute of limitations law on any claim with an object that has been "neglected or forgotten", if I may use the term, and that since these flag rings had been hidden away for decades since the time of WW2, the court probably viewed the items as being "abandoned" by the German State, and thus whoever discovered the hidden away flag rings was allowed to claim them as their property, and thus they were able to do with them as they please, ultimately choosing to sell the flag rings on Kube's auction.
I know that as a former museum director, here in the state of Iowa there is a similar statute of limitations to any object(s) that have been loaned to a museum for display purposes, and after a certain period of time if the owner of the object(s) does not seek to reclaim their object(s), the items are legally forfeited to the museum, and considered to be "abandoned objects". That's the way things work out with the law sometimes... The loaned object(s) to the museum are simply, legally seen as "abandoned objects" after whatever specific length of time that the State of Iowa proclaims by law, whatever that amount of time period is deemed to be. (Unfortunately I cannot recall the exact length of time in years that the object(s) would be considered abandoned by law in Iowa, without looking this up). I imagine that there is a similar law in Germany in regard to "abandoned objects", even if they are German State Property, and thus the reason that the German Government lost the case and Kube was able to sell the flag rings and other related objects.
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KAGGR#1
Well-known member
I have owned these rings since 1999 and have them displayed with the other rings.
I got re-interested in I R 31 when I was able to rebuild my Kaiser Prize collection.
I R 31 won the Kaiser Prize more times that any other unit in the Armee.
I also got a framed photo group of a soldier from I R 31 / 10 Kp with 2 examples of his 1909 Kaiser Prize
I R 31 / 5 Kp won the Kaiser Prize 7 years in a row ! I sure would like to see their 1904 Kaiser Prize .
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
When I was collecting medals & badges of the Veterans of the Civil War , United Confederate Veterans (UCV)
I was often told ; "You should donate your collection to a museum"
#1 . No one ever donated a badge to me , I had to buy them.
#2 . I did check into museum donations in my area. The owner must sign a paper that reads ; once
donated , the museum has the right to do whatever they want to with the items.
In the case of the UCV : Anything Confederate is now considered NOT P C
they would not display the items
I speak here about the Memphis Museum only
they own the bed of Confederate General N.B. Forrest
It was "donated " by the family
It is not on display and no one is allowed to see it
even the UDC ladies in Memphis who requested to see it
they were told no
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Alan
Another flag story of interest that I was involved in.
Before the 1999 Kube sale
I was able to buy a green Jager Batl flag.
It had been removed from the pole
After the end of WWII General Patton's Army
took position of a great number of the old Imperial flags
they were in storage for some time
as time when by the Germans asked them to be returned .
They were returned , but while in storage some of our G.I. 's
"took them from the pole" and brought them back to the states.
That's where my Jager flag came from
It was in Calif
Back in those days some Calif. collectors would travel around the USA
rent a hotel room and run an add in the Newspapers for G I 's
to bring them the items they brought back from WWII
and offer to buy them
That's how the Jager flag was purchased.
As you know the Jagers were Batls only and only 1 flag per unit
I had a list of the flags that our Army had given back
Less the 2 Garde units , there were only 11 Green Jager flags
I was trying to figure out which unit was my flag from
I wrote Reinhardt Redlin asking for help to I D my flag
But he turned me in to the Germans who were in charge of the flags
they sent me a letter reading that I had no right to ownership
the flag was the property of the German Government
I said so what !
I used a P O Box for mail
sometime later I went to my P O
I knew the clerk and he knew me
The clerk told me that some German officer was at the P O
asking for my home address
the P O people refused to give him my address
Richard told me that the German was really pissed
that's a true old story
Collecting is fun !
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
I R 72 / Fusilier Batl
I did win this ring, and it is still in my collection today.
A couple of points about this ring. This is one that I posted earlier
as real vs. fake .A dealer offered the fake ring and swore up & down that it as the real deal.
There had to be different people who did the engraving work. Note how "fat " the numbers 72 are.
The people who made the fake ring did not know that
My I R 72 ring has different engraving work than my other rings
Also note over to left , even in B & W you can see where the 3 nails were in the ring
the bright gilt finish is still there because for over 100 years the nails over that part of the ring
also the hidden flange is also bright gilt
this is one thing that has not been duplicated.
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
I won I R 79 / IV B ring
Note the big difference between the engraving of I R 79 vs I R 72
I later was able to do a deal with the winner of the I R 76 / I B Fahna ring
the 1900 Banderole ; 1870-71 KDM streamer with battle honors ; 1870 Iron cross pole top
and 1914 cross with ribbon . Lots 949 950
Steve
