Original Garde wappen on a M1860 pickelhaube?

[Melf]

Hello, just trying to make sure the wappen on this helmet is original before I purchase it since I wasn't able to find many garde M1860s to compare with.
It looks like the eagle's neck broke and it got glued back together and it seems to have left an imprint on the helmet so I'm hoping it's alright.

I will also attach a pic of the stamp, it is GR marked, thanks in advance!

 

[Zebedeus]

How is the eagle attached to the helmet body? Are there double holes?
As it appears, it's too low compared to the helmet, and the ghost of its wings can be seen far above.
The brass eagle doesn't match the silver wappen.
I have serious doubts that it's original on this helmet.
Zeb.

 

[Sandmann]

Hello and welcome to the Forum.
The banner with the text „Mit Gott für König und Vaterland“ wasn’t introduced before 1860, so it’s not the original banner for this helmet stamped with the year1853. But it still could be an original emblem, which was attached to the helmet after it has been modified into a helmet M1860. The ghost imprint could be from the 1st original emblem, which was worn from 1853 until 1860. It doesn't appear to be a ghost imprint made of dust, but rather an indented mark in the surface. That’s why I could imagine that it is still visible even today.

 

[John Josef]

I like the overall look of the helmet from the pictures posted and think Sandy's explanation sounds very plausible.

I'd also like to see answers to Zebs questions, and a few more pictures.

On a side note, I love the Beer steins. I see two of my Favorites to visit and drink the Hofbrau and Andechs for two different reasons, but both are wonderful.

 

[Melf]

Hello and welcome to the Forum.
The banner with the text „Mit Gott für König und Vaterland“ wasn’t introduced before 1860, so it’s not the original banner for this helmet stamped with the year1853. But it still could be an original emblem, which was attached to the helmet after it has been modified into a helmet M1860. The ghost imprint could be from the 1st original emblem, which was worn from 1853 until 1860. It doesn't appear to be a ghost imprint made of dust, but rather an indented mark in the surface. That’s why I could imagine that it is still visible even today.

It indeed looks like a downsized older helmet updated to 1860 regs to me and that's when the emblem was changed too, I was simply wondering if the emblem is original and not a much later post-1871 model.

That the imprint on the shell could be from the older emblem it had in 1853 is a very good observation . And if I'm not mistaken the markings are for a Garde Regiment aren't they?

I will ask for an inside shot showing how the wappen is attached, thank you guys

 

[Wadosa]

If the number 1853 is authentic, it means that the helmet was made as a model 1842 and issued in that year. Then, after 1857, it was remade according to the new regulation: the helmet was cut in height from the upper part and therefore we could see the cross stitching. The same cross base, with four sheets of the same length, was used again and covered both the front and other seams. (The current base has a shorter front leaf) The rear reinforcing strip was used again, as evidenced by the position of the nail, which is significantly higher. (when compared to the newly manufactured M.60 helmet)
If we could see the helmet with the eagle removed, I believe there would be 3 sets of holes: 1. holes for the M.42 eagle (maybe clogged), 2. holes for the same eagle, but placed lower after the helmet was modified to M.57 and finally holes for the current eagle. (maybe the current eagle is inserted into the previous holes - if it was convenient) This would explain its unusually low position.
This eagle is not M.60 but M.95
Markings: if it were a Guard Infantry Regiment - they should be in this form: (number) GRzF / Garde Regiment zu Fuss /



That's my theory.

 

[Melf]

If the number 1853 is authentic, it means that the helmet was made as a model 1842 and issued in that year. Then, after 1857, it was remade according to the new regulation: the helmet was cut in height from the upper part and therefore we could see the cross stitching. The same cross base, with four sheets of the same length, was used again and covered both the front and other seams. (The current base has a shorter front leaf) The rear reinforcing strip was used again, as evidenced by the position of the nail, which is significantly higher. (when compared to the newly manufactured M.60 helmet)
If we could see the helmet with the eagle removed, I believe there would be 3 sets of holes: 1. holes for the M.42 eagle (maybe clogged), 2. holes for the same eagle, but placed lower after the helmet was modified to M.57 and finally holes for the current eagle. (maybe the current eagle is inserted into the previous holes - if it was convenient) This would explain its unusually low position.
This eagle is not M.60 but M.95
Markings: if it were a Guard Infantry Regiment - they should be in this form: (number) GRzF / Garde Regiment zu Fuss /



That's my theory.

Wonderful analysis, thank you! You can indeed see the cross stitching at the crown from the height reduction, pic attached.

I've also got a pic of the front seen from the inside as requested, the mentioned two or three sets of holes are present pretty close to each other, at least one of the holes has been filled in as I've seen in various helmets that went through such updates.

Markings seems to check out, I see "GR" and can make out the top of the "F" with enough room for the lowercase "z" before it.

Lastly, you mention the eagle is M.95 but the attachment ring/bails (not sure what they are called?) seem to be of the older type with nut and bolt+loop rather than the later, simplier plain wire loops I'm used to.

 

[b.loree]

That is not an M95 Garde Eagle. It is an older version which fits with the age/history of the helmet. The tail feathers indicate an older wappen. The fasteners on both the spike base and wappen are also the older style used from 1842 - 1860’s.

 

[Lars13]

Very nice to see such an old helmet with such a history

 

[Melf]

The eagle was my biggest concern, now I think I'm going for it.

Many thanks to everyone for your valuable input!

 

[Wadosa]

The dark eagle with a pronounced patina is M.60. The two basic distinguishing features between M.60 and M.95 are these:
1/ the tail feathers point convergently in M.60, while in M.95 they go divergently
2/ the scepter in M.60 is three-segmented, in M.95 only two-segmented
Furthermore, in M.95 the head and crown of the eagle are smaller, the neck is narrower and shorter
As for the attachment of the eagle to the helmet, it could have been changed to give the impression of the original adaptation. Anytime 5-20 years ago, who knows.
I know that somewhere here on the forum there is a very nice thread where the differences between these eagles are described in detail.

 

[Melf]

Very useful and detailed comparision between the M.60 and M.95 Garde eagles. Luckily I did not make the purchase yet.

But while surfing the forum I came across this Garde M.71 from J.LeBrasseur (I hope he doesn't mind me reposting his picture as it's relevant to the discussion).

The eagle on his helmet looks 100% identical to the one on this thread, so I wonder if it might be a post-1860 eagle, from around 1871 and before the M.95 model, while already having some of the notable characteristics which differ from the M.60 pattern you mentioned such as: the two-segmented scepter, tail feathers that spread outwards (but seemingly longer than on the newer models) yet keeping the old way of attachment, which I think would be too much hassle to replace if it was a later wappen.

 

[Melf]

The wappen fasteners can be seen here , also identical

 

[Lars13]

Good comparison

 

[Sandmann]

At that time, there were different press forms and different manufacturers, so in my opinion it is not so easy to determine the age of a helmet eagle based on design features. I know a few attempts to clearly distinguish the eagle M60, M87 or M95 based on the wing tips, the scepter design or the design of the tail feathers, but there are always mixed variants that contradict the described characteristics. This doesn’t make it easy to classify age based on such differences.
The patina of the helmet eagle, the threaded pins with the squared bow nuts are absolutely authentic for me and the latter haven’t been removed for a long time. Therefore, I see no reason to doubt the Wappen here. In my opinion, it fits very well with a helmet M1860.

 

[Wadosa]

I can only agree with Sandman. But I am only going by what I have seen with my own eyes or read. In 1871 a new model of eagle for line infantry was introduced, perhaps the eagle for guards units was changed at the same time, as well - just my speculation. A look at the back of the eagle would help. We also do not have information about the height of the eagle ???
Helmets - eagles of the GRzF are very "rare birds".
So, in any case, I would advise my colleague "Melf" to buy the helmet as is - it is not often possible.
Another question: does the helmet have a removable spike? GRzF helmets had them.

 

[Melf]

The spike top is indeed removeable in order to put on the trichter and paradebusch, as it should be with a GRzF helmet. I think the details we've examined check out positively. Sadly the whole spike broke off from the base which means it's loose -seems like a common issue, but at least the original spike is present so it doesn't bother me much (and it's one of the reasons it's up for a good price).

I think I will follow the advise and get it as I quite like it! Then I will take measurements of the eagle and, only if it's possible without damage, unscrew it to take a look at the back.

Many thanks again to all the members who gave their insights on this piece

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

// Sadly the whole spike broke off from the base which means it's loose -seems like a common issue, //

Unfortunately many Collectors hold a helmet by the spike. That is absolutely the worst way to pick up a helmet. One minute you’re holding a compete helmet by the spike, the next minute you are holding only the spike as the helmet bounces off the floor.