Help needed - Reichskriegflagge

[HatEnjoyer]

Hello all! It’s been a while since I last posted, but a friend of mine has been looking to get into Imperial German, and he was looking to purchase the flag attached below.

He was wondering if anyone here could determine whether it was wartime or postwar. Thanks!

 

[b.loree]

Our member czechlegion is well informed on these so hopefully he will make a comment.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

In my opinion, based on the heraldry:
Imperial War Flag (Kaiserliche Fahne) WW1.
It features the stylized Great Iron Cross, the medallion with the black eagle of the Hohenzollerns (Kings of Prussia), and the Iron Cross, all set against a background of the three imperial colors (Kaiser). This flag was the one adopted by the Imperial German Navy.

 

[HatEnjoyer]

In my opinion, based on the heraldry:
Imperial War Flag (Kaiserliche Fahne) WW1.
It features the stylized Great Iron Cross, the medallion with the black eagle of the Hohenzollerns (Kings of Prussia), and the Iron Cross, all set against a background of the three imperial colors (Kaiser). This flag was the one adopted by the Imperial German Navy.

I appreciate the reply Clovis! I will be sure to let my friend know your opinion!

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Kaiserliche Marine — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

 

[John Josef]

There doesn't seem to be any grommets or any way to fly the flag.

Is the hoist part of the flag a sleeve hollow at both ends?

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Hello,

I will add to what WAF Forum member PaulJ said about this flag on the WAF forum, where this flag has also been posted for opinions.

I agree with that other forum member, PaulJ. I believe it is Weimar or 1930's era flag. I say this because:

1.) The detail of the eagle on the top of the Staff is of very simple, low-quality detail, not equal to the detail of the eagle on the top of the staff as seen on WW1 era or earlier flags.

2.) The detail on the staff itself is not as fancy as I have seen on other earlier examples.

3.) The feathering on the eagle is actually not as detailed as what I have seen on known original 1914-1918 flags. The tail feather detail is not as fancy as the WW1 or earlier examples that I have seen as well.

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello Alan,
From a heraldic point of view, this flag is a pure "Kaiserlich" (Imperial) flag. The eagle is indeed the Prussian royal eagle. The eagle of the Weimar Republic no longer has the royal crown, the sceptre, the orb, and the the collar of the Black Eagle of Prussia.
Furthermore, we have the red, white, and black of the Reichs. The yellow, which is the color of the German Republic, is missing.

Below, the war flag of the Weimar Republic, modeled on the previous one, but transposed to the Republic. Yellow replaces white, the eagle no longer has the insignia of Royalty.

 

[John Josef]

It's definitely not from WWI my guess would be it's from a veteran's organization like the Stahlhelmbund or a paramilitary group from the inter war period.

When referring to the Weimar Period relating to Battle Flags it has nothing to do with the actual Weimar Government Flags. It has to do with the interwar period.

There are three different types and periods of Imperial Battle flags and manufacture times which all looks similar. WWI, Weimar and Third Reich. The Third Reich era produced flags are known as tribute flags.

I havent received an answer yet about the lack of Grommets which can be sewn, metal or aluminum. There is also lack of markings which really help to date a Battle flag alongside the printing style of the eagle and sceptre.

The flag looks like it's been shortened on the side of the hoist which would explain the lack of grommets and markings. I would hit it with a black light especially on the hoist side. I have a feeling it was a later modification and may light up like a glow stick at a rave.

I'm not an expert on flags but I did recently help a friend sell a large flag collection which had several Battle flags from all three periods in it plus the new design of Battle flag used during the third Reich. While doing that and learning and dealing with serious flag collectors you can really learn a lot.

I will send the photos to a serious flag collector and expert I became friends with and see what he says. It would help if you could measure the flag to verify if it's been modified, hit it with a black light and please say if the hoist has a sleeve (open at both ends) hope this helps.

MFG John Josef

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Yes, I'm only commenting on the heraldry, that is to say, the symbolism. Regarding the date of manufacture, ...no comment.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Yes, I'm only commenting on the heraldry, that is to say, the symbolism. Regarding the date of manufacture, ...no comment.

Yes, thanks Thierry. I already realize the facts about the heraldry.

I was commenting about the time period when the flag was actually made.



As John Joseph has correctly said above here, and which I am reposting below, "There are three different types and periods of Imperial Battle flags and manufacture times which all looks similar. WWI, Weimar and Third Reich. The Third Reich era produced flags are known as tribute flags."

Add to those 3-time periods: They made these up into the 1960's era from what I understand, which are often seen having black vertical stripes on the halyard, and a "Wurttemburgishe Cattunmanufactur" cloth label sewn onto the halyard.

There's an example without the black stripes on the halyard that is being stated as being 3rd Reich era manufactured that is for sale on the current Collector's Guild update, which I received last evening. It could be from the 3rd Reich era, as is stated on Collector's Guild website, I honestly do not know for certain. I am not a flag expert on Imperial Battle Flags. I only know what I have read from others who spoke about them on the WAF forum in the past. The flag on Collectors Guild has a maker's label sewn onto the halyard. Sometimes we see a flag like this having black vertical stripes on the halyard, with this same flag manufacturer cloth label sewn onto the halyard. The late Ben Weed, who was known as "OldFlagsWanted" as his forum ID on WAF forum, has said, if I recall correctly, that they made that type up into the 1960's era that has vertical black stripes on the halyard, and this same manufacturer's cloth label sewn onto the halyard.

The example for sale on Collectors Guild as of this posting date, Does Not have the black vertical stripes on the halyard. And the halyard is marked for identification purposes, which is not seen on any examples with vertical black striping on the halyard that I have seen up to this point of time in my experience.

It's definitely not from WWI my guess would be it's from a veteran's organization like the Stahlhelmbund or a paramilitary group from the inter war period.

When referring to the Weimar Period relating to Battle Flags it has nothing to do with the actual Weimar Government Flags. It has to do with the interwar period.

There are three different types and periods of Imperial Battle flags and manufacture times which all looks similar. WWI, Weimar and Third Reich. The Third Reich era produced flags are known as tribute flags.

I havent received an answer yet about the lack of Grommets which can be sewn, metal or aluminum. There is also lack of markings which really help to date a Battle flag alongside the printing style of the eagle and sceptre.

The flag looks like it's been shortened on the side of the hoist which would explain the lack of grommets and markings. I would hit it with a black light especially on the hoist side. I have a feeling it was a later modification and may light up like a glow stick at a rave.

I'm not an expert on flags but I did recently help a friend sell a large flag collection which had several Battle flags from all three periods in it plus the new design of Battle flag used during the third Reich. While doing that and learning and dealing with serious flag collectors you can really learn a lot.

I will send the photos to a serious flag collector and expert I became friends with and see what he says. It would help if you could measure the flag to verify if it's been modified, hit it with a black light and please say if the hoist has a sleeve (open at both ends) hope this helps.

MFG John Josef

Here are 3-photos of the flag I mention above that is listed on the new update on Collectors Guild website:

 

[John Josef]

Hi Guys,

Like I mentioned before I'm not a flag expert by any means so that's why it's always good to have someone you can call who is to help or before making a purchase.

I reached out to my buddy Thomas in Texas for his thoughts on the flag that started this thread. He was also kind enough to get a second opinion from his good friend and fellow flag collector in Denmark.

They say it's authentic and from the period of 1903-1918. They've said the size is that of a gaffelflagge for certain vessels but with no markings or any stitch holes indicating that there was ever a rope on it they have come to the conclusion that its either a flag meant for land forces, a flag flown from a pole, or an unfinished flag.

If anyone has any specific questions about Imperial flags, I would be happy to ask my buddy he is very happy to help.

MFG John Josef

 

[John Josef]

There's an example without the black stripes on the halyard that is being stated as being 3rd Reich era manufactured that is for sale on the current Collector's Guild update, which I received last evening. It could be from the 3rd Reich era, as is stated on Collector's Guild website, I honestly do not know for certain. I am not a flag expert on Imperial Battle Flags.




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Hi Alan.

I forwarded these pictures to my buddy to get a second opinion, he said 100% it's a Third Reich era production.

I do recognize that manufactures tag they were the main producer or Kriegsmarine issue Fuhrer Standards and Grand Admiral flags I've also seen them on very nice Third Reich Battle Flags. That's a very nicely made Imperial Tribute flag from the WW2 era.

MFG John Josef

 

[DonMatteohh]

Hey everyone, i was the guy HatEnjoyer posted the thread for
Even tho this comes pretty late for reasons i explained in my introduction post i wanted to thank you all for your help
I came into the field of imperial german flags as a total novice a month or so ago and came out with a decent knowledge thanks to both old threads aswell as you guys
I actually wanted to update this post before kinda closing it by telling you i was able to grab an original 1903-pattern reichskriegsflagge with imperial stamps dating it to the era i was looking for AKA WW1 or pre-ww1 just last week
Below are some pictures, those of you on the WAF will have seen them already, i have an appointment with a specialized frame maker to frame this bad boy for good since its definitely due for retirement
Thanks to everyone for making a dream come true, i dont think i can quite state how much in love with this flag design i am, special thanks to ww1czechlegion for having the patience and will to reply to almost every post about these both here aswell as in other forums

 

[John Josef]

Very nice Gafflel Flag. Congratulations

 

[HatEnjoyer]

Hey everyone, i was the guy HatEnjoyer posted the thread for
Even tho this comes pretty late for reasons i explained in my introduction post i wanted to thank you all for your help
I came into the field of imperial german flags as a total novice a month or so ago and came out with a decent knowledge thanks to both old threads aswell as you guys
I actually wanted to update this post before kinda closing it by telling you i was able to grab an original 1903-pattern reichskriegsflagge with imperial stamps dating it to the era i was looking for AKA WW1 or pre-ww1 just last week
Below are some pictures, those of you on the WAF will have seen them already, i have an appointment with a specialized frame maker to frame this bad boy for good since its definitely due for retirement
Thanks to everyone for making a dream come true, i dont think i can quite state how much in love with this flag design i am, special thanks to ww1czechlegion for having the patience and will to reply to almost every post about these both here aswell as in other forums

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Gorgeous flag! She's a beauty.

 

[Peter B]

Awesome! Can't wait to see it in it's new frame.