4th Grenadier plate on a 4rth Grenadier GUARD M95 helmet

S

souvigny

New member
Hi,

new on this website, I would like first to introduce myself as a french collector mainly collecting french uniforms and headgears of the 1910-1915 period; I also collect german militaria picked up on the 1914 & 1915 battlefieds by the french soldiers. For example, one of my last purchases in a french local auction sale is a saxony reservist artillery trooper helmet of the FAR 78 with a splinter mark on the top ball!

My question today is related to my very last purchase last saturday in another local french auction sale: a beautiful M95 helmet brand new condition and beautifully stamped of the 4th guard grenadier (Augusta) regiment, dated 1900 and re-issued in 1914 (see the one on EBay US at the moment, actually its brother).

The plate is not the usual guard one but the 4rth grenadier one usued after 1911, mine without the 1626 plate. The guard star "Suum Cuique" has been placed in the middle with the usual two hooks attached to the plate with two little tongs of hard leather. This way the star hides the "koenig" word of the usual prussian motto "mit gott fur Koenig und vaterland".

Everything seems to be original, the plate is perfecty stamped on the skull leather, there is absolutely not any other mark of another plate on the skull varnish.

What does that means? Is this GGR4 helmet stamped a first time in 1900 and probably reissued in 1914 has been equiped with a grenadier plate transformed as a guard one with the SuumCuique star because the war supply shortages? Is that possible with the imperial guard?

:?: Some french well known pickelhaube collectors told me that they have seen other examples like mine. What do you think? Do some of you have some similar examples in their collection?

I will try to post some pictures in a following message.


Thank you for your attention :?:
 
1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg


You can notice that the motto design is not the normal imperial guard plates one but the 4rth grenadier regiment one (after 1911) without the 1626 plate....
 
Could I please use your picture of the markings on our listing at
http://pickelhauben.net/articles/Kammer_Marks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is an excellent mark and clears up some confusion that existed between your example of GGR4 and GGR 1. we would be most grateful. Also, if you will give me your full name I will put it on the contributors list.

Welcome to forum

Can you also try to determine exactly what is printed on the right-hand side where the arrow is–this might help answer your question.

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch
 
That is the correct eagle Wappen for Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regt. Nr.4. (Berlin) Garde-Korps.

The 1626 Bandeau was worn by Grenadier-Regt. König Friedrich der Grosse (3.Ostpreußisches) Nr.4 (Rastenburg) I Armee Korps. Different Regiment.
 
Tony gives a good explanation in just a few words! There seem to be numerous examples of Grenadier Wappen used in the guard. There are even examples of guard wappen used in Grenadier units without the star. It is not clear to me who this helmet was reissued to until you send a deciphering of that Mark.

Then there are these weirdos we discussed earlier from GGR4. Often confused with Gd. Landwehr.

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

Reservists of the Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regt. Nr. 4

from Glenn J.

1. Landwehr men did not wear regimental cyphers.
2. Landwehr men usually wore the blue Litewka in peacetime.

Regarding the business of a standing Guard reserve in peacetime. Obviously reservists just reported to their former active regiments for their two annual training periods. The Garde-Landwehr as such was really just an administrative orgainisation akin to the Landwehr Bezirkskommandos of the line. The regiments existed in name only with Guards Landwehr Officers being assigned to a specific "Regiment" in the Army list for administrative purposes. Like their line counterparts, Guards Landwehr personnel were formed into "exercise" companies and battalions for the purpose of their stipulated mandatory training periods.

The Garde-Landwehr structure was something of an anomaly. In the line, the day to day business of reserve and Landwehr personnel was regulated by a Bezirkskommando. Now as the Guards did not have their own Bezirkskommando this business was conducted by a control office at headquarters of the Garde-Korps headed by a uniformed retired field officer. Each active regiment of the Guards and other supporting arms had their corresponding Landwehr "Regiment". Reserve officers of the Guards on transfer to Landwehr status became officers in these corresponding "Regiments". As stated before they did not actually compose formed units but were an administrative tool under the auspices of the Kontrollbureau for the control of the officers of Garde-Landwehr.

A transfer of an officer of the Garde-Landwehr to another unit required Imperial approval. One assumes that a Landwehr Officer assigned to the control a provincial Landwehrbezirk then wore the appropraite provincial Landwehr uniform. The "units" of the Garde-Landwehr are listed in the annual Prussian Army Lists before the provincial Landwehr Districts.
Click to expand...
 
The mark on the right end shows: 1.R.R (1st reserve regiment?) I. B (Ist batallion) 3.C (3rd company), 1914, I
I have some nicely marked helmets in my collection, I would be happy to contribute to your stamps list...

Pictures will follow the next days


My full name is Laurent Mirouze from France
 
Thank you I added the marking. As I see it there are 2 possible reissue units. The most probable one is
1. Garde-Reserve-Regiment (+MG.-Kp.)
R
Aufgestellt vom 1. G.R.z.F. in Potsdam Unterstellung: 1. G.Res.Div. Kommandeur:Oberst v. Schlechtendal
I.: Major v. Pommer-Esche (G.Gren.R.Nr. 4)
II.: Major Graf v. Stillfried u. Rattonitz (1. G.R.z.F.)
III.: Major Möller (G.Gren.R.Nr. 5)

However I would have expected the Mark to say 1GRR.

The other possibility is:

Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 1 (+1. u. 2. MG.-Kp.)
Aufgestellt in Rastenburg (I.) und Insterburg (R.Stb., II., III.) Unterstellung: 1. Res.Div.
Kommandeur:Oberstleutnant v. Sommerfeld
und Falkenhayn (I.R.Nr. 45)

What I would then call some question as to the wappen.
 
Bienvenue sur ce forum,Laurent! Beau matériel que vous vendez aussi souvent sur ebay =D>
We are very curious about your other helmets and markings!!

Philippe :salute:
 
argonne said:
Bienvenue sur ce forum,Laurent! Beau matériel que vous vendez aussi souvent sur ebay =D>
We are very curious about your other helmets and markings!!

Philippe :salute:
Click to expand...

Precisely! Welcome!

:D Ron
 
Merci à tous pour vos messages, j'essaierai d'être un intervenant régulier!! Thank you everybody for your kind messages, I would try to be a regular contributor!!
 
Hi,
As Tony already clarified it, I think Laurent is making a confusion between the foot guard and the grenadier guard regiment
there's no specific eagle for the GGR4, but the GR4 has the bandeau 1626,
this kind of grenadier eagle transformed in a guard eagle is not scarce, it has been quite regularly observed in the collections here in Europe and also amongst dug out plates, it's probably due to a shortage in Guard plates...
anyway, this helmet has a quite nice marking, I did owe one, but a bit faded, and purchased a GGR3 with a very neat mark, I like very much that bataillon, and have several items marked after it (coat, uberzug, etc)
all the best, Stephane

Laurent, tu confonds le 4éme régiment de la garde à pied, et le 4éme grenadier de la garde, il n'y a aucune raison de penser que ce casque aurait pu porter un bandeau 1626 car c'est un GGR4 et non un GR4, cela dit le marquage est bien propre, sympa !
cordialement
Stéphane
 
Merci Stéphane de ton post qui confirme mon intuition sur le réemploi de plaques à la mobilisation.... même dans la Garde!

A bientôt et bonnes fêtes de fin d'année!!
 
mon intuition sur le réemploi de plaques à la mobilisation.... même dans la Garde!
Click to expand...
I think we have to be careful with the intuitions.

For reserve and landwehr, some assemblies are credible, but for active regiments, according to me, that's harder to believe.

Bonnes fêtes !
 
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