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joerookery

joerookery

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190244399933

This baby has prompted more questions by phone and e-mail then I have received lately. Almost all of these come from senior collectors. It will be interesting to hear what other people have to say about it. :) :) :)
 
The 3rd battalion of the 66th reserve infantry regiment regrouped, from August 1914, some of the reservists and Landwehrmanner of the Sachsen-Altenburg duchy. The active from Sachsen-Altenburg was affected, from 1868 to 1897, to IR95 and IR96 (1st battalion) then, from 1897 onward, to IR95 and to battalions I and II of IR153.
An interesting helmet. Should be even better with a reserve front plate and, especially, with a liner!
Bruno
 
In addition to the Linie Adler
Click to expand...
It does read "Fuerst", he added this info now.

@Joe
He did not understand your question, evidently you wanted to ask whether you may use the picture of the stamp in the article? Should I ask him about this?
 
Yes Please! As you know I use a voice typewriter with software called Dragon NaturallySpeaking. It works great but I just upgraded to version 10 and it flushed all of my German vocabulary -- it also has a nasty habit of sending things I'm not done with! Oh well back to the drawing board! Working two articles-- maybe someday... :( :( :(
 
Lost Skeleton said:
Hi Bruno:

In addition to the Linie Adler, I believe the Wappen is IR 94.

Chas.
Click to expand...

Chas is right! I didn't pay close attention but the emblem is not for Sachsen-Altenburg but for Sachsen-Weimar... which had its reserve in different regiments. Well these 2 Wapppen look quite similar, and we know that regulations in the reserve were sometimes loose...
Any other opinion?
Bruno
 
Hi JR92:

By Linie, or line, my intent was to identify an Adler distinct from the Landwehr/Reserve eagle, i.e. line infantry vs. reserve, etc. It was probably a poor mating of words from a technical standpoint.

I do believe, however, that an IR 94 "line infantry" Wappen (Fuerst legend notwithstanding) has no business being mated to this helmet.

Recent auctions from this seller include beer and soda crates, fountain pens, and SD RAM.

Dubious and in that condition, I wouldn't touch it.

Chas.
 
I love this sort of intellectual bantering. I agree with Chas that in this condition this helmet is not very desirable. In my mind the question is simply does this wappen belong on a helmet which has a Mark for RJR 66? As has been pointed out, it is a Saxe-Weimar active or line wappen with a RJR 66 marking. Larcade in volume 1 page 98, lists the reserve elements for Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach as limited to two battalions of RJR 94. On page 95 he puts the third Battalion 66 RJR in alignment with Saxe Altenburg alone.

So is the helmet wappen bad or is there something wrong with the understanding of RJR 66? If it was a wappen from Saxe Altenburg no one would blink because of the Larcard reference. Unfortunately, I do not know where the Ersatz Battalion for RJR 66 was located. But as usual I cannot replicate Larcade in a laboratory. As usual, he is correct but way too narrow to be complete. It is almost like Larcade listed the initial drafts and then stopped.

So it is true that Saxe Altenburg sent the commander to third Battalion RJR 66 from JR 153 and there is no question that the duchy supported RJR 66 however I do not believe they supported it exclusively. I also do not believe that RJR 66 was supported only by Saxe-Altenburg. An interesting piece of trivia that starts Larcard’s view unraveling is that there was no Bezirkskomando in Saxe-Altenburg. There were two Bezirkskomando nearby however they were both in Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach. Both of them were underneath the Landwehr Inspection of Erfurt. Reserve regiments in general were filled with 55% Landwehr soldiers and 44% reservists. I do not know the actual fill of RJR 66.

What is more interesting to me is the location of the regimental formation. The three battalions were created in Altenburg, Naumburg, and Weißenfels. Two of these three locations are not even in Thuringia! Rather they were in the Prussian province of Saxony. The closest Bezirkskomando seems to be in Weimar -- right in the lap of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach and JR 94. Could this wappen not have come from the Landwehrbezirke in Weimar? Prussian wappen would be normal for Naumburg and Weißenfels and the use of a Landwehr cross for reserve and Landwehr formations is at best a hope for enlisted ranks. Why couldn't it have a wappen from Reuß?

I really don't care which side of this controversy is correct. Based on my limited knowledge I think this wappen could be on a helmet marked to any of these reserve infantry regiments:
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 36 - Bernburg, Halle a. Saale, Dessau
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 72 - Bitterfeld, Torgau, Neuhaldensleben
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 32 - Gera
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 66 - Weißenfels, Naumburg, Altenburg
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 71 - Meiningen, Mühlhausen/Thüringen, Hersfeld (Kurhessen)
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 82 - Sondershausen, Erfurt, Gotha
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 94 - Weimar, Eisenach
 
joerookery said:
//If it was a wappen from Saxe Altenburg no one would blink//
Click to expand...
Hi Joe:

I would, simply because, as Bruno stated above, it would "be even better with a reserve front plate."

This is the configuration I would expect from any Landwehr/Reserve Wappen, regardless of rank, representing Thüringia (my example is IR 94):

P1011051.jpg


P1011055.jpg


Didier Lainé's diagram from page 294 of L'Armée Allemande en 1914:

PhobucReserve.jpg


Chas.
 
Hi Chas,

Thanks for the thoughts! Super nice wappen by the way. Photographic evidence seems to support those wappen with Landwehr crosses for officers. I don't think that is the case with noncommissioned ranks. In fact it seems hard to find group photographs of enlisted soldiers with a Landwehr cross. I have a nice one of a Korporalschaft of a Saxon reserve infantry regiment all with nice reserve wappen. However this seems to be the exception not the rule. Photos abound of reserve infantry regiments and Landwehr infantry regiments with no Landwehr cross. Not only were there few Landwehr crosses but Prussian line or active wappen seem to have replaced shortages in other specialty wappen such as Baden or Hessen. I actually looked for a reserve infantry Regiment from Thuringia. This is an example of the Ersatz battalion of RJR 94. There is no Landwehr cross and no wappen from Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach.


rjr940001.jpg

rjr940003.jpg


What I am trying to determine is where were the helmets and how did they get there. I know the requirement for XI Army Corps but I have no clue how they were divided by state. When the new regiments form such as any RJR did they get their equipment from the Army Corps or from the regiment that sponsored them?

Does this show why I am not convinced that enlisted soldiers in reserve/Landwehr units do not have Landwehr crosses?
 
Hello,

I think this wappen could be on a helmet marked to any of these reserve infantry regiments:
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 36 - Bernburg, Halle a. Saale, Dessau
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 72 - Bitterfeld, Torgau, Neuhaldensleben
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 32 - Gera
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 66 - Weißenfels, Naumburg, Altenburg
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 71 - Meiningen, Mühlhausen/Thüringen, Hersfeld (Kurhessen)
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 82 - Sondershausen, Erfurt, Gotha
• Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 94 - Weimar, Eisenach
Click to expand...

Joe, where did you find that list ?

I have only few informations about the RJR, and I have to learn about it !
\:D/
 
:) :) :) I wish I could find a list! For a couple of years now I have been keeping a database trying to determine which reserve and Landwehr units were directly in line with certain active regiments. So this is my own research it is not a list from a book. The information comes from all sorts of sources and I think I'm pretty close -- a heck of a lot closer than when I started :o :o

I still have some problems with some Hesse stuff and I'm sure I will find more inconsistencies but I think I'm pretty close. This is related to recruiting also. The only source I know in print that deals with the reserve units in some detail is the Busche manuscript.

Eventually the idea was and still is to put all this stuff in a book about how Imperial Germany worked but I keep adding to it and then I stop working and golf. :x :x :x I would be glad to e-mail you what I have as it is still a work in progress! There is so much to learn about these guys!
 
joerookery said:
//Photographic evidence seems to support those wappen with Landwehr crosses for officers. I don't think that is the case with noncommissioned ranks. In fact it seems hard to find group photographs of enlisted soldiers with a Landwehr cross.//
Click to expand...
Hi Joe:

I hear you, and as you have demonstrated time and again through period photos, the Prussian Wappenadler appears to be the default insignia for any unit at the low end of the organizational totem pole. I imagine this was dictated more by needs of supply and demand than any other factor. I'm very much whistling in the dark, but I nevertheless believe the equipment of fifteen men from the Ersatz battalion of a reserve infantry regiment circa August 1915 reveals nothing more than the circumstantial.

At the individual/artifact level, Larcade provides several examples of Mannscahften Landwehr/Reserve Wappen including an IR 94 helmet on page 96 of Casques à Pointe Volume One. I also know that the Fürst cross is an integral part of the Landwehr/Reserve IR 92 I/II Bataillon. Mannschafts Wappen. However, based on the surviving evidence, it's nearly impossible to know what is the exception and what is the rule.

I applaud you for tackling such a challenging and frustrating subject. It's akin to a paleontologist trying to reconstruct an entire skeleton from a fossilized jawbone. To quote Sherlock Holmes: ""Data! Data! Data!... I can't make bricks without clay."

Returning to the muddy waters of the eBay listing for a moment, I can't say I place much faith in the originality of the IR 94 Wappen regardless of its relation to the helmet. I copied and "enhanced" one of the eBay photos and the star and S-W-E coat of arms look uncommonly poor (I will remove it should an objection be raised):

6928_1.jpg


This is what the Wappen should look like:

P1011057.jpg


Chas.
 
It's akin to a paleontologist trying to reconstruct and entire skeleton from a fossilized jawbone.
Click to expand...

What a great analogy! Despite their best intentions and diligent research these guys still missed entire species of dinosaurs. Seems very appropriate.

I do have a nice picture of JR 95-- in their Ersatz Battalion from about the same time with a Prussian wappen -- I agree with supply and demand.
 
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