A real Garde-Adler ohne Stern

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello,
A French collector submitted a front plate to me, asking ‘if I knew anything about it’.
I replied that I did, although it was extremely rare. This is a genuine Garde-Adler ohne Stern.En voici un autre en laiton doré.

If you look at them too quickly, you might think they were Grenadier de la Garde eagles from 1842 to 1889 or Linien-Grenadier eagles from 1897 (after the FWR eagle of the old regiments).
But the differences are very clear.

-The true Grenadier eagle with ‘hovering wings’ shows an S-shaped cross or sword guard, whereas the eagle of the Guard shows a butterfly-knot-shaped cross.
-The real Grenadier eagle shows an acanthus knob at the end of the sceptre, instead of an eaglet.
-The real Grenadier eagle shows a Vaterland-band with 5 folds, with ‘Koenig’ on the breast of the eagle, instead of 4 folds with Koenig on the left wing.

The eagle submitted to me is not a Grenadier eagle but a Prussian Guard eagle, which was never perforated to receive a Stern Guard.
These Garde-Adler, without the Garde-Stern, and without the 2 vents to fix it, are extremely rare, but they are sometimes found. I don't know which regiment they were intended for. For the K.I.R.145 of Metz, in 1913... in theory, perhaps, because in reality it was supplanted by the Grenadier-Adler.
One thing is certain, these eagles do exist...
In small numbers, but they do exist...

 

[KAGGR#1]

Hello,
A French collector submitted a front plate to me, asking ‘if I knew anything about it’.
I replied that I did, although it was extremely rare. View attachment 50121 This is a genuine Garde-Adler ohne Stern.En voici un autre en laiton doré.
View attachment 50122
If you look at them too quickly, you might think they were Grenadier de la Garde eagles from 1842 to 1889 or Linien-Grenadier eagles from 1897 (after the FWR eagle of the old regiments).
But the differences are very clear.
View attachment 50129
-The true Grenadier eagle with ‘hovering wings’ shows an S-shaped cross or sword guard, whereas the eagle of the Guard shows a butterfly-knot-shaped cross.
-The real Grenadier eagle shows an acanthus knob at the end of the sceptre, instead of an eaglet.
-The real Grenadier eagle shows a Vaterland-band with 5 folds, with ‘Koenig’ on the breast of the eagle, instead of 4 folds with Koenig on the left wing.

The eagle submitted to me is not a Grenadier eagle but a Prussian Guard eagle, which was never perforated to receive a Stern Guard.
These Garde-Adler, without the Garde-Stern, and without the 2 vents to fix it, are extremely rare, but they are sometimes found. I don't know which regiment they were intended for. For the K.I.R.145 of Metz, in 1913... in theory, perhaps, because in reality it was supplanted by the Grenadier-Adler.
One thing is certain, these eagles do exist...
In small numbers, but they do exist...

Clovis :
Interesting post
I am lucky to have a "true " KIR145 officers helmet in my collection.
When seen in person and in one of my photos one can see the outline
of where the old line eagle was mounted on the helmet.
I also have a Kammer issue 1906 enlisted man's helmet from KIR145 with line eagle
another enlisted man's helmet with the owners name tag inside but has
the line Grenadier front plate that you wrote about .
Steve

 

[festwagner]

Very nice KJR 145 helmets. The one with the owner's name has its original plate ?

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Very nice KJR 145 helmets. The one with the owner's name has its original plate ?

A subject that has fascinated me for at least 3 decades with the KIR145.

In fact, the ‘soaring wing’ eagles were only original to new helmets made after October 1913, the AKO dating from September.

As with the Lieniengrenadier, the original eagle on helmets already in issue was either that of the ‘old regiments for Grenadiers’ before 1897 and progressively regiment by regiment, or that of the line infantry in the case of the KJR145 after October 1913.

This explains :

---Steve's officer's helmet line eagle mark, behind the new so-called Grenadier or Guards without star. The mark of the old eagle of the line, which can be seen on helmets already in service before 1913.
---The spacing of the bridges, at around 8cm for the ‘gliding’ eagles intended to replace the FWR eagles of the old regiments, or the eagle of the line of the KIR before 1913.
NOTA :
The later the gliding eagle was awarded, the wider the spacing of the bridges or attachments at 8cm. This was the case for awards in 1913, notably for the GR9 and the KIR 145.

*** Here are 3 soaring eagles with 8cm attachments (145 KIR replacement eagle of the line) or Grenadier-Rgt 1 to 12 (replacement eagle Old-Rgt LWR)

T
***The attachments here straddle the sword and sceptre = 10cm

And for comparison, a Grenadier soaring eagle at 10cm, i.e. an original eagle, fitted by the supplier and not adapted by the B.A.

The attachments here straddle the sword and sceptre.

Achtung ! Attention ! Warning !
All the Guards helmets I've held had the eyelets at 10cm. All the eagles whose lapels I was able to examine had the attachments at 10cm, either on the sword or on the sceptre.
To date, only 1 Garde-Adler with an 8cm difference in fixings has been submitted to me, and it was an officer. This is an exception, a privately purchased helmet. It remains a unique exception.

 

[KAGGR#1]

Very nice KJR 145 helmets. The one with the owner's name has its original plate ?

Yes , the "new wide winged eagle "
Steve

 

[KAGGR#1]

A subject that has fascinated me for at least 3 decades with the KIR145.

In fact, the ‘soaring wing’ eagles were only original to new helmets made after October 1913, the AKO dating from September.

As with the Lieniengrenadier, the original eagle on helmets already in issue was either that of the ‘old regiments for Grenadiers’ before 1897 and progressively regiment by regiment, or that of the line infantry in the case of the KJR145 after October 1913.

This explains :

---Steve's officer's helmet line eagle mark, behind the new so-called Grenadier or Guards without star. The mark of the old eagle of the line, which can be seen on helmets already in service before 1913.
---The spacing of the bridges, at around 8cm for the ‘gliding’ eagles intended to replace the FWR eagles of the old regiments, or the eagle of the line of the KIR before 1913.
NOTA :
The later the gliding eagle was awarded, the wider the spacing of the bridges or attachments at 8cm. This was the case for awards in 1913, notably for the GR9 and the KIR 145.

*** Here are 3 soaring eagles with 8cm attachments (145 KIR replacement eagle of the line) or Grenadier-Rgt 1 to 12 (replacement eagle Old-Rgt LWR)View attachment 50178
View attachment 50179
TView attachment 50180
***The attachments here straddle the sword and sceptre = 10cm

And for comparison, a Grenadier soaring eagle at 10cm, i.e. an original eagle, fitted by the supplier and not adapted by the B.A.
View attachment 50181
The attachments here straddle the sword and sceptre.

Excellent !
Thanks
Steve

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello Steve,
Yes, Magnificent 145KIR helmets. Thanks for sharing. On the other hand if the helmet of enlisted shows well an eagle of grenadier of line (guard in S, button of acanthus, VB with 5 folds), the precedent of officer, shows an eagle mixed between the hovering eagle of Grenadier and that of the Guard. Indeed, it has the VB with 5 folds of the eagle of Grenadier, but it has the guard in ‘bow tie’ and an eaglet in end of sceptre.

 

[dave mosher]

It is my understanding the "guard eagle w/o star" has the bandeau through the chest, but with the wide spread eagle vs. the grenadier artichoke top.

 

[KAGGR#1]

It is my understanding the "guard eagle w/o star" has the bandeau through the chest, but with the wide spread eagle vs. the grenadier artichoke top.

IMO the eagle at the bottom is the true, correct plate for KIR145.
Steve

 

[argonne]

A subject that has fascinated me for at least 3 decades with the KIR145.

Cloclo, as you know, the KIR145 is full of sweet and unexpected surprises
But it´s another story
Philippe

 

[KAGGR#1]

I have a photo of KWII with the officers of KIR145
Some of the officers wear the "new " eagle front
other officers wear the old line eagle.
Steve

 

[k bandow]

Cloclo, as you know, the KIR145 is full of sweet and unexpected surprises
But it´s another story
Philippe


View attachment 50278
View attachment 50279
View attachment 50280
View attachment 50281

Absolutely INCREDIBLE photo and helmet!!!

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Cloclo, comme vous le savez, le KIR145 regorge de surprises douces et inattendues
Mais c'est une autre histoire
Philippe



View attachment 50278
Yes, the model for the BA0 1900, placed in trials at the KIR145 and the Lehr-Infanterie Regiment in Berlin.

 

[b.loree]

Mosher.....what's with all the posts lately??? You are freaking me out! Nice wappen grouping! I will see you at the SOS as usual.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

The Genwiki specifically mentions the difference between the Garde-Adler ohne Stern and the Grenadier-Adler with gliding wings.

IR 145 – GenWiki

wiki.genealogy.net

"16 June 1913: Award of the guard eagle without star, bandeau (sword with straight crossguard and guard sceptre) Order.
The (normal) Grenadier eagle (like those of Grenadier Regiments Nos. 1 to 12) was presumably also worn at team rank."

 

[KAGGR#1]

The Genwiki specifically mentions the difference between the Garde-Adler ohne Stern and the Grenadier-Adler with gliding wings.

IR 145 – GenWiki

wiki.genealogy.net

"16 June 1913: Award of the guard eagle without star, bandeau (sword with straight crossguard and guard sceptre) Order.
The (normal) Grenadier eagle (like those of Grenadier Regiments Nos. 1 to 12) was presumably also worn at team rank."

Is this site done by one of our members ?
and / or maintained by a member ?
Thanks
Steve

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Is this site done by one of our members ?et/ou maintenu par un membre ?MerciSteve

I think anyone can suggest a correction or addition, and it's endorsed once it's been checked.

 

[KAGGR#1]

I think anyone can suggest a correction or addition, and it's endorsed once it's been checked.

I was thinking of KIR145
Steve

 

[KIR145]

The eagle submitted to me is not a Grenadier eagle but a Prussian Guard eagle, which was never perforated to receive a Stern Guard.
These Garde-Adler, without the Garde-Stern, and without the 2 vents to fix it, are extremely rare, but they are sometimes found. I don't know which regiment they were intended for. For the K.I.R.145 of Metz, in 1913... in theory, perhaps, because in reality it was supplanted by the Grenadier-Adler.
One thing is certain, these eagles do exist...
In small numbers, but they do exist...

Hi,
I also have a Guard eagle emblem without holes for the star (see attachment). Very unusual about my eagle is the extremely reddish gilding.
Unfortunately I don't know anything about it, but I suspect that it could be a later production? (perhaps after 1918 until around 1945 ?????)
And in my opinion - it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the IR145. But as I said, just a guess on my part!

The grenadier eagle was also definitely worn by the IR145 (from 1913), see for example the picture in the following old post:
https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/officer-helme-kir-145.14301/#post-111885
... or here: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/thr...the-prussian-helmet-eagles.19029/#post-140289

Probably the “real” Guards eagle without the star was more common for the officers.
And sure, there are also a few enlisted man's emblems (like the piece you show here).

I think anyone can suggest a correction or addition, and it's endorsed once it's been checked.

Is this site done by one of our members ?
and / or maintained by a member ?
Thanks
Steve

I created this IR145-page on GenWiki many years ago - and yes, there are a few things that need to be corrected.
Thanks & best regards, Jens

 

[CLOVIS 57]

I created this IR145-page on GenWiki many years ago - and yes, there are a few things that need to be corrected.
Thanks & best regards, Jens

Congratulations !!!
I would add that apart from the crossed sword, the tip of the sceptre, and the VB with 4 or 5 folds, the position of the legs and drumsticks is not the same, spread out for the Guard, and tight for the Grenadier.