A sad M 1860
- Thread starter Markgraf
- Start date
Markgraf, what a wonderful old helmet! :love10: :love10: IMO You don't need too much to put humpity-dumpity back together here, I'll look through my box of spares to see what I have available.
IMO this is a really early helmet predating the 1860 model, a modified 1842 with changes to 1857 with the applied bandeau. You couldn't ask for better unit markings, 3rd Pommeranian Infantry Regiment Number 14. :thumb up:, I believe the letter B (at least that is what it appears to be to me)which begins the unit marking, indicates Battalion, with the roman numeral which should be in front of the B missing.
What is a curiosity to me is that the front visor edging looks to be steel instead of brass, is this so? Also the visor itself appears to be made of heavy cardboard with some kind of black covering, what is that made of? I would really like to know more. Thanks so much for posting this, you made my morning. If convenient, additional photos of the interior would be a bonus. Very cool helmet.....
Larmo
IMO this is a really early helmet predating the 1860 model, a modified 1842 with changes to 1857 with the applied bandeau. You couldn't ask for better unit markings, 3rd Pommeranian Infantry Regiment Number 14. :thumb up:, I believe the letter B (at least that is what it appears to be to me)which begins the unit marking, indicates Battalion, with the roman numeral which should be in front of the B missing.
What is a curiosity to me is that the front visor edging looks to be steel instead of brass, is this so? Also the visor itself appears to be made of heavy cardboard with some kind of black covering, what is that made of? I would really like to know more. Thanks so much for posting this, you made my morning. If convenient, additional photos of the interior would be a bonus. Very cool helmet.....
Larmo
joerookery
Well-known member
That's a good question #-o I think it stands for 33 Prussian Infantry Regiment. This is an East Prussian unit and we need to look up where it was at before Gumbinnen. I am not so sure about the letter N also. :-k :-k :-k
joerookery
Well-known member
I think you are right. That makes so much more sense. :thumb up:
poniatowski
Well-known member
I agree, that's a pretty cool old helmet and I wouldn't do too much to it other than a light cleaning and those replacement posts. If you clean the furniture too much, the shell will look out of place, right now, it all has the same patina and age suggestion; nice and balanced. I also agree that this helmet was converted from an earlier model. All in all a nice find! (I seldom luck out like that!)
I also wonder about the front visor's composition, not that it's wrong, but it looks interesting. If it is cardboard, then perhaps it wasn't the military who replaced a damaged front visor (bullet hole, cut up, smashed, worn out), but a former owner who lacquered it with some care... another part of its history. It's obviously had a varied and interesting past. It could have gone from the military to a veteran's club, restaurant as a decorator or collector. Who knows?
Interesting piece and good find!
Ron
I also wonder about the front visor's composition, not that it's wrong, but it looks interesting. If it is cardboard, then perhaps it wasn't the military who replaced a damaged front visor (bullet hole, cut up, smashed, worn out), but a former owner who lacquered it with some care... another part of its history. It's obviously had a varied and interesting past. It could have gone from the military to a veteran's club, restaurant as a decorator or collector. Who knows?
Interesting piece and good find!
Ron
joerookery
Well-known member
I didn't even read that Larry! Too early in the morning. Okay okay so can I copy the marking and put it on the listing? It is a really good one.
Hey Francis, great minds think alike...er,ah, ah or something like that, or, we were both just so taken with the helm we were too excited to think clearly..
Ok, here's my quasi-intelligent guesstimation explanation of why the B is all out front and lonely. I believe this marking was branded into the helmet using one or two red-hot irons or brands first. Since B3PJRN14 would have been the same marking for every helmet in the regiment. the only variables would have been the battalion marking I, II or III which would have been individually applied. Whoever marked this helmet didn't leave enough room to the left of the B to place the battalion marking. Sort of like a "Dammit" moment on Monday morning.
My two cents anyway...
Spot on Ron :thumb up:
Markgraf
Member
Wow! :thumb up:
Thank you very much for the lot of comments and the informations!
I'm very glad that I made happy to your morning The benefit of the different time zone
I try to answer to every questions:
In fact this helmet is in the posession of the Hungarian Military Museum. Sadly we don't have informations about the origin because great part of the museum's archives were destroyed during the WWII. Most likely the museum acquired the helmet in the twenties (together with a number of Kaiserreich militaria).
The edge of the front visor made from brass. I can't say anything about the front visor: actually made from cardboard. Might be an interwar period museum replacement but I'm not sure.
The additional photos:
The interior:
Stamped number on the rear visor:
The Wappen, the bandeau is clearly an overlaying part.
joerookery: You can put the marking to your list but please note the museum under the picture.
Larmo: It would be great! Thanks in advance!
Thank you very much for the lot of comments and the informations!
I'm very glad that I made happy to your morning
The benefit of the different time zone I try to answer to every questions:
In fact this helmet is in the posession of the Hungarian Military Museum. Sadly we don't have informations about the origin because great part of the museum's archives were destroyed during the WWII. Most likely the museum acquired the helmet in the twenties (together with a number of Kaiserreich militaria).
The edge of the front visor made from brass. I can't say anything about the front visor: actually made from cardboard. Might be an interwar period museum replacement but I'm not sure.
The additional photos:
The interior:
Stamped number on the rear visor:
The Wappen, the bandeau is clearly an overlaying part.
joerookery: You can put the marking to your list but please note the museum under the picture.
Larmo: It would be great! Thanks in advance!
Khukri
Well-known member
Great pics.
You don't often have a chance to see one of the older Hauben in detail....
Great to see the leather reinforcement strips in the shell with the Bügelmuttern (the nuts).
And now for something completely different: time for some :-? -questions....
1-How is the Vaterlandbandeau attached to the Wappen ? Soldered ?
2-I can see a hole in the Wappen:
is it held by bolts (the hole...) ? Not by soldered-on threaded rods...?
3-How do the bolt heads look like.
4-Can you please show pictures of the rear spine and the way this is attached to the helmets shell. (inside view on the seam in the back of the shell).
I'm sure I'm not the only one who likes to see/know more.
Thank you,
Francis
You don't often have a chance to see one of the older Hauben in detail....
Great to see the leather reinforcement strips in the shell with the Bügelmuttern (the nuts).
And now for something completely different: time for some :-? -questions....
1-How is the Vaterlandbandeau attached to the Wappen ? Soldered ?
2-I can see a hole in the Wappen:
is it held by bolts (the hole...) ? Not by soldered-on threaded rods...?
3-How do the bolt heads look like.
4-Can you please show pictures of the rear spine and the way this is attached to the helmets shell. (inside view on the seam in the back of the shell).
I'm sure I'm not the only one who likes to see/know more.
Thank you,
Francis
Markgraf
Member
Khukri: Many good questions, so :wink: :
Vaterlandbandeau is soldered. You can see the patch of the solder.
The Wappen originally held by two bolts. One of these in the hole, the other lost.
However the bandeu nearly covered the bolt heads.
The rear spine:
And the rear spine's fixing:
Vaterlandbandeau is soldered. You can see the patch of the solder.
The Wappen originally held by two bolts. One of these in the hole, the other lost.
However the bandeu nearly covered the bolt heads.
The rear spine:
And the rear spine's fixing:
Khukri
Well-known member
Markgraf,
Thank you ! :thumb up:
I appreciate your prompt answer!
This one is a great example of several links in the Pickelhaube family tree.
Prussians recycled and modified/adapted their "oldies" to the newest regulations. Still cheaper than a new Haube.
After all; in 1860 thirty-two new Infanterie Regimenter had to be outfitted :army:
So: one hell of a job for the saddle-makers.
Starting from the 1842 pattern: the "ancestor":
Two very important modifications that will affect both weight and height; will lead to two different patterns. Reduction of the helmet shell by about 3 cm in 1857 means the "birth" of the Model 1857. A following reduction of the shell by 2 cm in 1860 will lead to the Model 1860. Any reduction in height on the “old” models brings important works. Full disassembly and assembly of the helmet.
(from: Uniformes, Hors-série 31; Le casque à pointe).
I think this one was a 1857 pattern adapted to the 1860 pattern.
Apart from the holes in the front I guess that some extra holes (for attaching the chinstraps) can be seen from the inside on either side of the helmet shell (covered by the leather "patches" on the outside of the shell)
I would love to sniff the old brass; leather and dust !
Regards,
Francis
Thank you ! :thumb up:
I appreciate your prompt answer!
This one is a great example of several links in the Pickelhaube family tree.
Prussians recycled and modified/adapted their "oldies" to the newest regulations. Still cheaper than a new Haube.
After all; in 1860 thirty-two new Infanterie Regimenter had to be outfitted :army:
So: one hell of a job for the saddle-makers.
Starting from the 1842 pattern: the "ancestor":
Two very important modifications that will affect both weight and height; will lead to two different patterns. Reduction of the helmet shell by about 3 cm in 1857 means the "birth" of the Model 1857. A following reduction of the shell by 2 cm in 1860 will lead to the Model 1860. Any reduction in height on the “old” models brings important works. Full disassembly and assembly of the helmet.
(from: Uniformes, Hors-série 31; Le casque à pointe).
I think this one was a 1857 pattern adapted to the 1860 pattern.
Apart from the holes in the front I guess that some extra holes (for attaching the chinstraps) can be seen from the inside on either side of the helmet shell (covered by the leather "patches" on the outside of the shell)
I would love to sniff the old brass; leather and dust !
Regards,
Francis