A strange black Stahlblechhelm from Baden...

Adler

Adler

New member
This helmet has some strange features... Normaly the stahlblech helmets were produced in one piece, this one is also made that way...
The rest is something different:
- Black factory paint instead of the normal fieldgreen
- Messing rim on the front visor instead of standard steel rim
- Rear spine instead of no spine
- A very strange and (at that time) expensive chinstrap
- No markings at all

It's the first and only of its kind I've ever seen, maybe someone has some documentation on this special haube?

Thanks in advance,

Adler
 
J-L Larcade CAP Volume I Page 113:
Number 8.

Translation

" This helmet is made of solid-black lacquered- steelplate. Most probably a pattented model of october 14th 1914; made by the Weissenburger Company of Stuttgart-Cannstadt. So this is not a real "Ersatz" model because of its good finish but more a helmet that offers a little more protection than the classic model 1895 Pickelhaube.
The helmet Wappen (Baden) and all fittings are made of Copper-aluminium alloy."...
(Fort de la Pompelle)

Rgds,

Francis

PS: I'll have to look in the pics I made last summer in Fort de la Pompelle; I hope I have one...
 
The one photographed in Larcade looks more like a Eisenblech (tin plate)Ersatz-Helme while Karel's looks like a Stahlblech (steel) with the beaded edge, but with fittings? Even stranger, it has the Bayern Reserve leather chinstrap made from chinscales.

Great helmet. :thumbright:
 
Thank you for your comments gentlemen!
Francis, how could I forget looking at Larcade? I'll hve to do some more research before I post one of my helmets...
Tony, it's indeed a Stahlblech and not an Eisenblech... What exactly do you mean by Bayern Reserve chinstrap, I've never heard of that?

Adler
 
I agree, what a cool helmet! I wonder, being the type who would do something like this, do you think the owner may have modified / improved it? What makes me wonder is the crack in the shell just behind the visor trim rivet, which might indicate some personal metalworking going on.
Considering all of the trench art out there, would that be possible? I think it's a super helmet. Great find!

:D Ron
 
Hi Ron,
Imo the cracks (on both sides of the helmets are there because that's exactly on the weakest points of the helmet. This is because there is no reënforcement (like the visor giving support) on those places. With the slightest vertical force on the helmet, this will appear.
The strap has been for ever on the helmet as far as I can see. There are no signs of modifications or changing of parts...
I have to go and do some more research on this one I guess...

Adler
 
Adler said:
Hi Ron,
Imo the cracks (on both sides of the helmets are there because that's exactly on the weakest points of the helmet. This is because there is no reënforcement (like the visor giving support) on those places. With the slightest vertical force on the helmet, this will appear.
The strap has been for ever on the helmet as far as I can see. There are no signs of modifications or changing of parts...
I have to go and do some more research on this one I guess...

Adler
Click to expand...

Okay, well, still a great helmet and the mystery only makes it more fun to research.

:D Ron
 
Adler said:
Tony, it's indeed a Stahlblech and not an Eisenblech... What exactly do you mean by Bayern Reserve chinstrap, I've never heard of that?
Click to expand...

Karel, when Bayern Reserve Troops adopted the M1896 Foot troops Pickelhaube, a large number of chinscales from the M1886 Pickelhaube were converted into leather chinstraps.

The end that hooks onto the M91 post is from a brass chinscale, while the the rest is leather chinstrap. Another distinctive feature is the single buckle with a leather slide. I have only seen these on photos of Bayern soldiers. Yours is different again, in that the M91 strap buckles are not sewn in the typical way to a strap, the left buckle has the leather looped around the outside edge of the buckle, not the center. Really interesting.
 
it's indeed a Stahlblech and not an Eisenblech...
Click to expand...

Just another one of my outside voices. As a group, we seem to have made these divisions and they are sensible. It is not clear to me that the Germans made the same distinctions. I stopped researching the substitute helmets a while ago for various reasons but I have acquired a large number of documents from the Bavarian archives concerning these. I have a little bit from Baden.

In the documents, there seems to be a division between Stahlblech and Aluminumhelme.

Sometimes these are both looped as metal. It also seems that some of the documents reversed the meaning of these two helmets. It also seems that perhaps there was something made of aluminum and something made of thin steel. There are a number of mentions that the steel helmet is lighter than the aluminum helmet. While it is clear that there are two types of filz, there seems to be no distinction in how they are referred to.

There are numerous Bavarian comments from units that complain about filz helmets getting wet and extremely heavy.

There are numerous Bavarian comments from units about the steel helmets being uncomfortable and extremely hot. Then suddenly, there is this field gray aluminum job that is the answer to many prayers. Almost in the same sentence the meaning is reversed and what was once steel becomes aluminum!

Another interesting piece of trivia is that the black paint is complained about because on the thin helmets they reflect at 200 m unaided. And at 500 m with binoculars. Again the aluminum helms can be painted field gray, the paint sticks to them as opposed to flaking off like the black ones, and because they do not reflect they do not require a helmet cover.

I do not know specifically what Baden wanted/did. The Army Corps actually published a document which listed all of the contracts. While I have been searching for this I have been unsuccessful in finding even one.

Two other pieces of trivia from the documents–it seems as though the word muster applied to a sample sent from a manufacturer to the BKA.

While these reports and documents are typewritten the word infantry is spelled with the J. This is contrary to some peoples views–but seems rather widespread as there were helmet tests in the Bavarian second infantry Regiment.

All this trivia proves nothing.
 
joerookery said:
This is contrary to some peoples views–but seems rather widespread as there were helmet tests in the Bavarian second infantry Regiment.
Click to expand...
It's okay with me if you name names, Joe, as I believe I'm the only party interested in the disambiguation of this controversy. :D

I've argued my position before, and to no avail, citing the history of the Latin alphabet and German orthography. Let's try logic.

Show me one word in the German language in which the consonant letter "J" is not followed by a vowel. For that matter, show me one English word in which the consonant letter "J" is not followed by a vowel.

Now, take a look at this diagram of the old German alphabet. Where's the letter "J?"

german-script.jpg


As I have stated before, the letter "J" was the last to be adopted by the German Alphabet, and its sole purpose was/is a palatal approximant for the letter "Y."

When it finally makes its appearance in the German alphabet, lo and behold, what did those crafty Germans make it look like?

image002.jpg


They made the majuscule form (capital; uppercase) look like their letter "I." Now look at the miniscule. However, all German nouns are capitalized, and infantry is a noun, Infanterie.

Now, look at this recent German article about IR Nr. 162. Why doesn't the author spell the word with a "J?"

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanterie-Regiment_%E2%80%9EL%C3%BCbeck%E2%80%9C_%283._Hanseatisches%29_Nr._162

Sorry for the digression, Karel. It's a beautiful helmet. Congratulations!
 
We should remember too that it wasn't until recently that the Germans actually standardized the language for their country. There were a lot of dialects before the 20th century and into it. Still have a few as well.
If, that is, I'm reading the book I got for Christmas correctly!

So I'd imagine there was some variation in the alphabet as well. I like your explanation of the 'J' for 'I'.

:D Ron
 
as I believe I'm the only party interested in the disambiguation of this controversy
Click to expand...

This was not sent your direction. You might be interested to know that there are actually several others. We discussed this once in a thread.
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2439&highlight=dictionary

Show me one word in the German language in which the consonant letter "J" is not followed by a vowel.
Click to expand...

How about the example shown in the other thread about the word-Inhaber-Jnhaber.

This is no big deal to me. All I am saying is that standardization is an elusive goal. Every time I think I have it something turns up. That's all. No hidden agenda.
 
No agenda taken, Joe. I was being facetious, hence the smilie.

I don't see any conflict regarding Inhaber. The letter is still a capital "I." There is no "Jnhaber" in my German dictionary. Granted, to your eyes and mine, the letter may resemble the English capital "J," but, to Germans of the era, it was an "I," pure and simple.
 
Great hemet! The stiching of the chin strap looks odd, normally the parts that go around the post mounts are attached to the middle bars of the buckle.

The Saxon Aluminum helmet of mine (see here)is definitely not a lightweight. It is heavier than a leather helmet and not made for special comfort. As you mention it, do you have any other aluminum helmets to compare?
 
Looking back at that Saxon I'm getting even more confused. Robert, you have stated several times that this shell is made of aluminum. That tracks with some of the documents I have been reading but how do you know? Are both steel helmet types magnetic? Aluminum is not magnetic is it? It would be wonderful to see side-by-side with the weight of the thin steel, the steel like Karel's, and the aluminum. Perhaps we have been too simplistic in the way we have grouped these or maybe it was just me–perhaps everyone else has it figured out but I certainly don't!
 
Omg, what a pile of information at once... Thank you very much guys!
Concerning the chinstrap, I can just say it's not altered in any way and has always been like this. It certainly is something strange, but nevertheless it looks all original.
Robert's aluminium helmet is something different I think... The high gloss makes me think of a parade or special duty. It seems logical that when an EM had to take part in a parade or had to stand guard at a special place, the EM had to be equipped with some special garments and maybe some special helmet. But that's of course a possibility and not a fact...
When I was in the army, some of my friends had to stand guard at the royal palace and they got for that duty al kinds of special equipment... including other helmets. After the guard duty they just had to give back everything to the quartermaster...
Well, time will bring a sollution I guess...

Adler
 
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