ANOTHER ONE MECKLENBURG-STRELITZ IR 89 II

argonne

argonne

Well-known member
Hello gentlemen collectors,

I drove last week to Paris for a small trip and I had the luck and was able to pick up this small oddity at a local museum in Belgium, not far from the french border. (Autumn ist harvest time..!! :) )
For me, all original anf I would describe the general condition as "good".
I particularly appreciate the clear Kammer-Stempel of the Großherzoglich Mecklenburgisches Grenadier-Regiment Nr.89 (garrison in Neu-Strelitz)
on the back visor.
I also remind Stephane_avesnes last months topic (salut la France ;-) ) about his interesting Haube showing a mixing of an IR89 II frontplate (Meckl.-Strelitz) and an IR89 I + III fluted spike (Meckl.-Schwerin). Stéphanes supposition that the quarter master of the II IR89 must have sometime had some problems because of the lack of spikes remains quite interesting and very plausible analysing this helmet too. Larcade wrote in Tome 1, page 86, that IR 89 II helmets wore a white Haarbusch ( red for musicians). Consequently, the spike of my Haube should be unscrewable but is NOT. I absolutely have no doubt that this spike always has been on this helmet. It is literally grown together with the leather body. As you can observe, the leather dome has lightly sank to the back during the past 90-100 years and the spike base gently followed this shrunkage. Absolutely no space between spike base and leather and also no shaking of the single spike units elements. No double holes in the leather behind the plate, original grommets and no "pierced" elements at the back of the wappen, as it has to be. The plate fits exactly into the holes and lets hear a gentle "click" while getting in place.
The "ghost" of the plate is as well visible although discrete.

At least a small anecdote: the whole IR 89 only fought on the western front during the war. It fought on the 5 September 1914 fast exactly at the place where I found this Pickelhaube last week! See following link (Gefecht, Feldzüge, usw):

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Militär/Formationsgeschichte/Deutschland/Alte_Armee/17._Division#Feldz.C3.BCge.2C_Gefechte_usw


If you are interested, the following link is showing all names of IR 89 officers killed in action 1914-1918:

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Verlustlisten/vl_grshrzgl_mecklenbrg_gren-reg_nr_89_wk1.htm

Enjoy these two links and following pictures!

Philippe :salute:

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I have had a series of questions concerning two elements of this helmet. What I am going to expound on is my opinion–opinion–I know that is anathema to certain people but I think the discussion is worthwhile.

The two sets of questions revolve around the marking and the nature of the spike-unscrew or not.

The question is that should not the markings say GR89 for Grenadier Regiment? Maybe even 89R, but surely not IR89. My opinion and only my opinion is that it would be difficult to assign any hard and fast rule to such a marking. GR is most normal for Prussian grenadier regiments but other Grenadier regiments that were part of the Prussian army seemed to have used different abbreviations often revolving around what I call the "Saxon style" using the letter R. It is my opinion that these marks changed based on the Kammer NCO. As a result, we often see some marking change dramatically in style over the years. For example look at our samples of JR76 and the JR 78. Therefore in the case of GR89 I see no problem with the abbreviation IR 89 especially as the typeset in this case seems perfectly good. I think type set can be a red light.

The second issue deals less with opinion as it is quite documented however, some people still do not embrace this concept. Parade plumes were used for parades–dress occasions–soldiers were issued their top rated uniforms-garniture I- as well as special helmets that could unscrew to allow a parade plume to be screwed in. As soon as the parade was over soldiers had to turn back in their good equipment. The regiment did not want to buy any more uniforms or helmets than they had to because of wear out dates. Therefore, soldiers in regiments that were authorized plumes often wore a helmet that did not unscrew it all for normal times or their service Dienst. This was commonly referred to as a Diensthelm. this was in general lower quality and.... wait for it… cheaper. This entire concept of a really good helmet and a less quality Diensthelme applied to private purchase helmets also in a somewhat different form. Therefore, I see no problem with a helmet from GR89 that does not have a removable spike top. :greentank: :greentank: :greentank:
 
Joe, thank you for your opinion and your arguments!

I have heard on this forum that both well known army museums in Brussels and also in Paris do not have an example of such a Mecklenburg-Strelitz M95 EM helmet in their displays. Someone on this forum said (or better, wrote) only the museum in Ingolstadt has one. Somebody maybe knows another museum??....Maybe Rastatt???
Well, I think I ´ll try to get in contact with the Ingolstadt museum. Maybe I will be lucky and get some informations about this helmet they have, and who knows, about some markings in it...?
I ´ll let know here if I´ll be successfull!

Philippe :salute:
 
Hi Philippe
the helmet looks good, including the plate and the dimension between the hooks on the shell make it difficult to fake anyway. The plate has marked the helmet and is on it for a very long time !
Concerning the markings, they are really an enigma for me, I thinks most of the few, very few, GR89 IIB, are marked only BA IX, probably because they are war time production, when it had become a hassle to mark the unit .....
I don't know any sample properly marked GR89 II B.... but I've had access to 2 of them only.... It's a good idea to ask Ingolstadt museum the information on their sample, the curator is friendly and is the most famous author in the current world of ww1 militaria, Docteur Jürgen Kraus. As Philippe lives in Germany, the most convenient solution is to pop in and compare "in situ"..... Ingolstad is in the South, In Bavaria, some kilometers from Munich, there are good highways in Germany ..... Good luck and please get back with some pics, especially the markings :D
Again, congratulations for your find :eek:
 
Gentlemen: I think that as forum moderator, it is time for me to step into this issue and relieve Philippe of his "angst" regarding this helmet. Obviously, he is suffering some lack of sleep and worry as a result of purchasing this helmet which although perfect....does have some unanswered questions. As a fellow collector I know the effect that these things can have on one's everyday life. However, this is a burden which I as forum creator, am quite willing to accept. So, out of the goodness of my heart....Phillipe I will pay what the helmet cost you,...send it to me and your nightmares will be over! No need to deal with any nasty museum curators! Sell the helme to me!! Seriously... there are all sorts of things that we collectors encounter in this passion of ours that don't add up. There are obvious glaring FAKES. However, there are regulations, then there is the human factor which has to deal with the realities of the moment in time...problems that have to be solved. A spike is a spike.....how much trichter parading was really done once the war had started?? The helmet is clearly marked..... B
 
I think that's a good piece with a great marking. The spike - do you think it might have been swapped at some time? The brads don't look exactly flat to me and may be slightly opened, but it could be the photo? Any bright scratches on the brass or the support disc - that's always a giveaway? You could always find a two-piece spike if it bothers you but I would not worry too much about this aspect - it's a nice helmet anyway!
 
Brian, Joe, Tony,
thanks for giving me my sleep back!! :sleepy2: :happy7: :sleepy2:

Yes Brian, you used the perfect word... "Angst"...This really can not be translated in another english word. It´s sometimes worse than a disease for us, german. This urge to know and control anything from the start till the end... This need of clear regulations, even regulation of regulations... :evil3:

Mikey, all brads are strongly fixed and well closed. No scratches at all on the brass spike base and none on the support disc. As I wrote, absolutely no space between leather and spike base. (you could even not slide a postage stamp between them!!)Spike base gently followed the shrunkage of helmet dome through the years. Comparing brads of other helmets being in my possession with these brads, I see flatter brads but similar domed brads too. :dontknow:

Philippe :salute:
 
Hi Phillipe,

I just read completely your first post and those point's - sorry, i should have done that in the first place! I can see that it does just as you say - like it's grown old together.

That's very cool - stop worrying and enjoy it!! :D

This whole de-tatch spike thing really is a mystery. I recently bought a Baden Grenadier 110 helmet that I know had been in an old house in Corsica for the last 80+ years - friends of my wifes family knew the people that owned the house and the helmet had been bought back from France in 1917 - completely untouched since then. Guess what? A one-piece spike! Absolutely original to the helmet, no question - the brads were flat as pancakes and locked to the disc. So what's going on with these thing's?
 
So what's going on with these thing's?
Click to expand...

Mikey,


I don't think this is such a big mystery but it seems to be a confounding one. It not only goes into the entire concept of Diensthelme but also replacement parts. As an example, look at the cost differential between a spike that did not unscrew and one that did. From a percentage cost it is absolutely huge. Why would you pay for a more expensive helmet spike when you already had that covered? This cost differential extended to the entire helmet. You could buy a helmet for a regiment that had a parade plume that did not unscrew. However, if you wanted it to unscrew you could still buy that. Below is one catalog example of the different kinds of helmet qualities offered by this vendor. The one on the left “a” is the lowest in this example.
diensthelm-types.jpg




This should give you a good feel of the cost differential for a replacement part spike.

spikeunscrew.jpg


This vendor specifically sold helmets in these three styles that could be unscrewed specifically for GR 110. if you bought the entire helmet all at once the price differential was not that high with the unscrew style costing eight marks and the non-screw style costing 7.8 marks.

Just as an aside Mecklenburg helmets were a bit more expensive in general with the Strelitz one's cheaper. 10 marks versus 9.5 marks for Grenadier Regiment 89 battalions.

The second issue deals less with opinion as it is quite documented however, some people still do not embrace this concept. Parade plumes were used for parades–dress occasions–soldiers were issued their top rated uniforms-garniture I- as well as special helmets that could unscrew to allow a parade plume to be screwed in. As soon as the parade was over soldiers had to turn back in their good equipment. The regiment did not want to buy any more uniforms or helmets than they had to because of wear out dates. Therefore, soldiers in regiments that were authorized plumes often wore a helmet that did not unscrew it all for normal times or their service Dienst. This was commonly referred to as a Diensthelm. this was in general lower quality and.... wait for it… cheaper. This entire concept of a really good helmet and a less quality Diensthelme applied to private purchase helmets also in a somewhat different form. Therefore, I see no problem with a helmet from GR89 that does not have a removable spike top.
Click to expand...
 
Hey Mikey,

I think it´s really as Joe and Brian wrote. It makes absolutely sense and is very logical.
War has mixed up all the pre-war time regulations. No time and priority anymore for the Bekleidungsämter and for the Kammer to strictly apply rules. Lack of metal, leather, adequate fittings made the regulations second-rate. It´s obviously also the reason for those Haubes showing mixed fittings to exist (brass and iron fittings on the same helmet), or also fireman-helmets with wooden spike (!) ( see Larcade, Tome I, page 112, pict # 4)... No time anymore for "Glanz und Gloria" parades...
I have read a lot of "Regiments Geschichte" and it´s told that there were still a lot of parades during the war (Kaiser or Kronprinz "Besuch" at the front). But old picts of such parades are showing that there all were "feldgrau parades", without any plumes or Haarbusch, but with Überzug.. One day before such wartime parades were the soldiers still laying in the trench mud, and one day after, were back in it again ...How achronistic and also ridiculous appears then an unscrewable spike?...
I really enjoy this "Strelitz-baby". I love those kind of polarizing artefacts, because of the need of discussion and argumentation they are causing, (and sometimes even a little lack of sleep ...) :iconbiggrin:

Philippe :salute:
 
Just want to tell that today, I´ve got a mail from Jürgen Kraus (Ingolstadt war museum curator). Yes, they also have a M95 Mecklenburg-Strelitz EM Haube, but unfortunately without any markings at all. No Regiment marks and even no BA marks too... They also do not have digi-picts of it yet....
It was worth a try.

Philippe :salute:
 
I have found at the galleries of following link a few pictures of another GR 89 II and its regimental stamp.

http://headgears.free.fr/fr/index.htm

Very interesting to observe that no letters at all were used for the regiment, either GR, R, or IR... Very unusual.
Only II .89.

Philippe :salute:
 
That is unusual. That just goes to support the idea that it changed. That example was made in 97. Generally, they seem to follow previous models. But this one is very unusual. Just goes to show…
 
Hi gentlemen,
I agree with most of the posts:
- so far never seen a mecklemburg helmet with original regiment marking, just BA and with very specific lettering B.-A .... ! The marking of the BA and the distance between hooks were enough to state that the helmet belonged to 89 or 90 regiment, so maybe they did not feel the need to mark the unit ?
- the spike should be removable but the economy argument is valid, I have a Colberg GR9 dusty and unmessed and the spike is not removable, it could also be a war production, 14-15 when parades were no more popular,

concerning the marking, here's a link to a schwerin helmet sold in Herman, unfortunately the pic does not show the marking well, however as I bought the helmet (cheap), i should be able to provide you with better pics soon. It's certainly a saxon shell on which was placed an original mecklemburg plate, I had the helmet in hand in Munich and the marking is obviously faked, I'm still trying to identify the cockade, anyone has ever seen that one ?
http://www.hermann-historica.com/
auction 61

Lot Nr.4990

Helm M 1895 für Mannschaften

der I. & III./Infanterie-Regiment 89 bzw. Füsilier-Regiment 90. Lederglocke, Messingbeschläge, kannelierte Spitze, Tellerbeschlag, Sonnenemblem mit neusilbernem Wappen. Ledersturmriemen, Mannschaftskokarden. Futter etwas beschädigt.

thanks in advance !
Steve
 
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