Antique Kneeler

RON

RON

Well-known member
Hello everyone,
I got this beautiful embroidered kneeler from a Catholic priest and friend of the family back when I was in my late teens in Montreal...
I once tried to get it evaluated at this local Canadian Antiques Road Show. According to them, it belonged to some prince-cardinal or bishop in some Western-European Principality circa19th Century.
It was even aired on a local French-Canadian national TV channel in the fall of 2001 but the experts couldn't put a final value on it as it still needed further investigation... They did say it could reach the 10s of $1,000 though.
Any further clues as to who this belonged to (from the Crest) or where I could get professional online opinion (for starters)?
Kneeler-c19thCentd.jpg

Kneeler-c19thCenta.jpg

Kneeler-c19thCentb.jpg

Kneeler-c19thCentc.jpg

Kneeler-c19thCent701.jpg
 
Since we seem to have fellow members with an advanced knowledge of ancient crests, I though I ought to revive this post... :-k

Any clues as to the above anyone?
 
Hey Ron,
I 'll do my best!
We are dealing here with a ecclesiastical coat of arms of a prince, probably French.
Ecclesiastical because of the hat at the top, and the more "knots" you have in the "rope"on the left and right side; the more important he was!
Yours is a "Monseigneur".
The crown might be a Prince crown.
That is what I can "read" so far.
I hope to get back with some more info asap.
cheers
|<ris
 
Hey Kris.

So far, what you're saying corroborates what I was told by the experts at the Antiques Show in Montreal...
I can also add that this Monseigneur-Nobleman was also a Jesuit--I went to a Jesuit school in Lebanon as a child--as per the additional "Crest" we can see on the arms rest: 'JHS' (Jesus Hominum Salvator).

Please do let me know when you find out some more.
Thanks again!
 
I called for help, as it isn't simple!
Thise far, I can tell you that because of the color of the hat, we are dealing with a bishop or archbishop.
Because of the form of the crown, probably a royal family member (like I said!)or prince-bishop...
Coming closer!
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So far so good Kris! This is exactly what I was told at the road show.
The key now is to identify to which European Royal House/State our Prince-Bishop belonged to, without forgetting he was also a Jesuit it seems, as per the notes I added to my last post above.

For instance, some of the elements inside the shield (Fleurs de Lys over blue) seem to point us in the French direction? Also, isn't that a Croix de Lorraine underneath the hat? :-k
Let's not forget this kneeler somehow found its way to a Dominican monastery in Quebec, Canada, presumably in the 19th century (i.e. well after the British took the colony over)...
 
Defenetly a descendant of thise familly;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Armoiries_de_la_Tour_d'Auvergne-Turenne.svg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The cross under the hat is called ; "double cross trefoil" in heraldic language , nothing to do with the Lorraine cross, it can be found on Polish, Spanish and many other coat of arms.
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I have got him!
http://www.geni.com/people/Jean-III-comte-d-Auvergne-et-de-Boulogne/6000000006444745977" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Impressive Kris! :bravo:

"John III of Auvergne (1467 – 28 March 1501), Count of Auvergne, was the son of Bertrand VI of Auvergne and Louise de La Tremoille (1432 – 10 April 1474), Dame de Boussac, the daughter of Georges de la Trémoille. He was the last in the line of Counts of Auvergne and Boulogne from the La Tour d'Auvergne family."

We now need to find who of his descendants became a Jesuit Bishop or Archbishop and why/when was the crown added to the family crest--since Jean de La Tour d'Auvergne was only a count, he wasn't entitled such a crown although some of his descendants were crowned kings of France (from the family tree available on the Geni site).
 
It might have to do with Anne of Auvergne (1358–1417) being married to Louis II, Duke of Bourbon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_II,_Duke_of_Bourbon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Sometimes the nobilty allowed them self some latitude/freedom when ordening theyre crests of arms to any kind of artist and then said the artist was wrong, when the "adulteration" was observed!!
;-)
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The crown may also be added to the crest when he became archbishop (or even patriarch!?), some kind of princely title within the clerical hierarchy...
 
No!
It is Charles-Amable de La Tour d’Auvergne-Lauragais, archbishop in Bourges from 1861 untill 1879.That will be more like it regarding the periode style of the chair!
Check thise link and scroll the images!
prod_v2.culture.gouv.fr/.../Chateauroux_36_Eglise_tapis_restauratio...
 
Kris, this is getting really exciting... =D> =P~
Your link is incomplete; please repost.

Also, look at what I found (the book cover has the exact same Crest, crown included!!): http://books.google.com.lb/books?id=rAzgueT-xH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Charles-Amable+de+La+Tour+d'Auvergne-Lauraguais%22&source=bl&ots=RkNgNjYnw8&sig=3WxTnwYz1EeYZel_DjiAsO-LaOI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bH51UKr2JMOBhQfi0YC4Cw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=inauthor%3A%22Charles-Amable%20de%20La%20Tour%20d'Auvergne-Lauraguais%22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
prod_v2.culture.gouv.fr/.../Chateauroux_36_Eglise_tapis_restauratio...

it is not realy a internet link!! Paste and copy it, and put on google search, it will lead you to a net page , there you need to download the pdf and it will bring you to a tapistery, with his coat of arms!
So you have; a tapistery, a book and a chair! Time to start a museum!! ;-)
|<
 
RON said:
Kris, this is getting really exciting... =D> =P~
Click to expand...
It is exciting!
It all started 20 years ago when i bought over 500 dies to make buttons with coat of arms of nearly all the Belgian nobility.
I didn't sleep for nearly 6 monnths to identify them all. And not knowing where to start a research at that time!.
|<
 
I guess the Internet has made things much easier... :)

While I go through all the links I now have, I'm still trying to figure out:

1/ How did we go FROM the Personal coat of arms of the counts of Auvergne and Boulogne from the House of la Tour d'Auvergne (the bottom/shield part of the crest on my kneeler) TO the Arms of the Archeveche de Bourges (shield+crown+cross+hat)? What's the link between these 2 entities?

2/ If this kneeler belonged to THE Archbishop personally--as in his own kneeler with his DNA all over it =P~ --or was it part of the Archevêché de Bourges' general furniture?

3/ What's the link with the Jesuits ('JHS' symbol on arms rest)?

4/ Last but not least, how did my kneeler find its way to Quebec, Canada, and why? Did our guy travel there? Was there some sort of entity representing the Archevêché de Bourges in Canada?
 
RON said:
I guess the Internet has made things much easier... :)

While I go through all the links I now have, I'm still trying to figure out:

1/ How did we go FROM the Personal coat of arms of the counts of Auvergne and Boulogne from the House of la Tour d'Auvergne (the bottom/shield part of the crest on my kneeler) TO the Arms of the Archeveche de Bourges (shield+crown+cross+hat)? What's the link between these 2 entities?

2/ If this kneeler belonged to THE Archbishop personally--as in his own kneeler with his DNA all over it =P~ --or was it part of the Archevêché de Bourges' general furniture?

3/ What's the link with the Jesuits ('JHS' symbol on arms rest)?

4/ Last but not least, how did my kneeler find its way to Quebec, Canada, and why? Did our guy travel there? Was there some sort of entity representing the Archevêché de Bourges in Canada?
Click to expand...
1/ That may take a while!
2/ That may take some time too!
3/ More time
4/ Much more time...
I have got other things to attempt to right now, but I'll try to help as much as I can.It generally takes me 2 to 4 weeks to identify a unknow crest!
Try to contact Eglise Saint-André. Châteauroux (Indre - 36), they might be of a great help.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Saint-Andr%C3%A9_de_Ch%C3%A2teauroux" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cheers
|<ris
 
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