joerookery
Well-known member
A couple of years ago, George Anderson had the find of SOS. This year he had a couple walk in at a gun show. I am posting these pictures for George he would like your comments. I will be at the gun show.... :?
Asian Filz
- Thread starter joerookery
- Start date
pointystuff
Active member
Wow. 
That's impressive.
Regards,
Brad
That's impressive.
Regards,
Brad
reservist1
Member
George: An exceptionally scarce East Asian Expeditionary Forces officer's helmet. There is a photo of an orfficer wearing the same helmet on page 18 of The German Army in the First world War Uniforms and Equipment 1914 to 1918 by Juergen Kraus.
If the helmet were mine I would remove the Prussian kokarde and search in earnest for a pair of gilt plated enlisted style private purchase chinscales.
Great find, congratulatuions.
Reservist1
If the helmet were mine I would remove the Prussian kokarde and search in earnest for a pair of gilt plated enlisted style private purchase chinscales.
Great find, congratulatuions.
Reservist1
Now thats a rare helmet congratulations!
Concerning the cocarde, I would be interested in when the state plates and cocardes were used at all. I have a cardbord backed photo that shows this helmet with prussian line eagle and appearently both cocardes. I never figured out when the state plate (and state cocarde) was used instead of the empires eagle (without state cocarde). It seems other state plates were never used though on the east asia helmets?
Concerning the cocarde, I would be interested in when the state plates and cocardes were used at all. I have a cardbord backed photo that shows this helmet with prussian line eagle and appearently both cocardes. I never figured out when the state plate (and state cocarde) was used instead of the empires eagle (without state cocarde). It seems other state plates were never used though on the east asia helmets?
joerookery
Well-known member
That is very cool, thanks for sharing!
joerookery
Well-known member
My goodness this has been an interesting helmet! I really encourage everyone to go to the reference that R1 gave us. It shows a lot of different things. I actually have a catalog from Wunderlich, but it appears to be after 1901, and there is nothing in it about this kind of helmet, nor about the parts of it.
I have been working an article that has a lot about this catalog in it. This find however gives you pause. R1 can you explain further your idea about private purchase chin scales? Clearly the picture has chin scales attached to the M91 posts. The spike looks officer like, but there are issue marks on the back visor. There could be a lot of explanations of this and I don't know that we will ever get it completely right, but I would like to your thoughts.
reservist1
Member
Joe: See Imperial German Military Officers' Helmets & Head Dress 1871-1918 by Thomas N.G. Stubbs, pages 489 and 493-496. The cited pages provide a description of the East Asian Expeditionary Forces officer helmet as well as photos of officer and enlisted versions.
As for the chinscales, the officer chinscales have 3 rivets on the rear end pieces in the same configuration as standard enlisted chinscales. Look closely at the photo of the officer on page 18 of the Kraus book, the rivets on the chinscales are visible.
The metal fitings on the officer helmet were gilt. The only gilt finished chinscales for M91 side lugs in production at the time the helmet was adopted (1900) would have been enlisted private purchase scales.
Given the unique configuration of the East Asian helmets, and the very small number of officer helmets that would have been required, it is quite possible that any needed officer helmets were assembled from government owned issue stocks and made available for sale to officers needing the East Asian helmet. We should also keep in mind that when the new helmet was adopted in 1900 the East Asian Expeditionary Corps had already been in China for a number of years. To supply personnel on duty in China it would have been necesary to ship the new helmets to China. Officers in China would have had no means to acquire a "private purchase" officer helmet. It is logical that a number of the helmets shipped by the government to the expeditionary force would have been in officer configuration for issue/sale to those needing the officer helmet.
One question which remains about the officer helmet is the configuration of the national kokarde. When the helmets were introduced the only kokardes for M91 side lugs would have been enlisted or senior NCO. The question is; did the officer helmet use a standard senior NCO kokarde or a senior NCO kokarde with an officer style 3 banded ring replacing the senior NCO style ring?
Reservist1
As for the chinscales, the officer chinscales have 3 rivets on the rear end pieces in the same configuration as standard enlisted chinscales. Look closely at the photo of the officer on page 18 of the Kraus book, the rivets on the chinscales are visible.
The metal fitings on the officer helmet were gilt. The only gilt finished chinscales for M91 side lugs in production at the time the helmet was adopted (1900) would have been enlisted private purchase scales.
Given the unique configuration of the East Asian helmets, and the very small number of officer helmets that would have been required, it is quite possible that any needed officer helmets were assembled from government owned issue stocks and made available for sale to officers needing the East Asian helmet. We should also keep in mind that when the new helmet was adopted in 1900 the East Asian Expeditionary Corps had already been in China for a number of years. To supply personnel on duty in China it would have been necesary to ship the new helmets to China. Officers in China would have had no means to acquire a "private purchase" officer helmet. It is logical that a number of the helmets shipped by the government to the expeditionary force would have been in officer configuration for issue/sale to those needing the officer helmet.
One question which remains about the officer helmet is the configuration of the national kokarde. When the helmets were introduced the only kokardes for M91 side lugs would have been enlisted or senior NCO. The question is; did the officer helmet use a standard senior NCO kokarde or a senior NCO kokarde with an officer style 3 banded ring replacing the senior NCO style ring?
Reservist1
Lost Skeleton
Well-known member
Congratulations, George, on a super find and an absolutely beautiful specimen. The unique officer spike appears also to have five vent holes.
The chinscales in the Kraus reference appear to be vaulted, which raises another question. Were vaulted scales the only type worn by Ostasiatischen Expeditionkorps? I don't own a copy of Stubbs, but there is an East Asian officer helmet pictured on page 146 of the old Johansson book with vaulted scales (identified by the author as "Imperial German Mounted Colonial Officer").
For those who are not familiar with the type, this Bavarian features privately purchased flat scales. They are gilt brass and thinner/ lighter than the chinscales issued to other ranks.
The interior is worth a look as well:
Chas.
The chinscales in the Kraus reference appear to be vaulted, which raises another question. Were vaulted scales the only type worn by Ostasiatischen Expeditionkorps? I don't own a copy of Stubbs, but there is an East Asian officer helmet pictured on page 146 of the old Johansson book with vaulted scales (identified by the author as "Imperial German Mounted Colonial Officer").
For those who are not familiar with the type, this Bavarian features privately purchased flat scales. They are gilt brass and thinner/ lighter than the chinscales issued to other ranks.
The interior is worth a look as well:
Chas.
joerookery
Well-known member
Stubbs seems very good on this point . This idea seems quite logical.
This also seems like a good point, but I might argue the size of the cockade as opposed to the rings.
This is where I have problems and we might be thinking the same thing but with different semantics. I am tripping over the words private purchase and chin scales. Wunderlich provided chin scales of the M91 model to a series of units- those same chin scales could also be purchased privately. I understand what Chas is saying about lighter but I look at those as extra light, as opposed to private purchase --. You could also get heavy private purchase ones. So maybe this is just semantics about private purchase, especially in this case where the lines blur.
This also seems like a good point, but I might argue the size of the cockade as opposed to the rings.
This is where I have problems and we might be thinking the same thing but with different semantics. I am tripping over the words private purchase and chin scales. Wunderlich provided chin scales of the M91 model to a series of units- those same chin scales could also be purchased privately. I understand what Chas is saying about lighter but I look at those as extra light, as opposed to private purchase --. You could also get heavy private purchase ones. So maybe this is just semantics about private purchase, especially in this case where the lines blur.
reservist1
Member
Joe: Concerning the size of the kokarde, at the time of adoption of the East Asian helmet no officer size kokardes, that I am aware of, existed with a center hole designed to fit the M91 side lug. To make officer size kokardes for the M91 lug would have required the fabrication of dies and manufacture of a limited number of a special size kokarde. This would have made no economic sense given the very small number of kokardes needed coupled with the fact that the Model 1900 East Asian helmet was only authorized for wear in East Asia. It was not to be worn in Germany.
As for the privagte purchase chin scales, the key point to keep in mind is that the fittings on the East Asian Officer helmets were gilt plated. I am unaware of any issue chin scales (thick or thin, heavy or light) that were gilt plated. Therefore, the chinscales should have been of the gilt plated private purchase style Chas illustrated on his Bavarian helmet. The thin style chin scale is also important because the East Asian other ranks did not wear chin scales. The side lugs on the helmets are designed to accept the fittings for a leather chin strap. As such the standard issue "thick" chin scales will not fit the side lugs. The thin style private purchase chin scales will fit M91 side lugs designed for a chinstrap.
Reservist1
As for the privagte purchase chin scales, the key point to keep in mind is that the fittings on the East Asian Officer helmets were gilt plated. I am unaware of any issue chin scales (thick or thin, heavy or light) that were gilt plated. Therefore, the chinscales should have been of the gilt plated private purchase style Chas illustrated on his Bavarian helmet. The thin style chin scale is also important because the East Asian other ranks did not wear chin scales. The side lugs on the helmets are designed to accept the fittings for a leather chin strap. As such the standard issue "thick" chin scales will not fit the side lugs. The thin style private purchase chin scales will fit M91 side lugs designed for a chinstrap.
Reservist1
joerookery
Well-known member
As usual, I was about as clear as mud.
And this is an example of what I was talking about with private purchase.
All three types here, could have been purchased for issue. Conversely, all three types here could be used as private purchase. Price seems to be the determining factor. It seems as though some issue purchases were made at the higher grade as well as a lower grade. Though not conclusive yet it seems as if different materials (brass, aluminum bronze, tomback)could also be purchased at varying prices.
I totally agree. I was talking about Silver Rings.
And this is an example of what I was talking about with private purchase.
All three types here, could have been purchased for issue. Conversely, all three types here could be used as private purchase. Price seems to be the determining factor. It seems as though some issue purchases were made at the higher grade as well as a lower grade. Though not conclusive yet it seems as if different materials (brass, aluminum bronze, tomback)could also be purchased at varying prices.
reservist1
Member
Joe: Is this catalog a list of Wunderlich products available for commercial sale to individual customers or does it reflect the contract prices that the government would have paid for quantity purchases of helmets built to issue specifications? From the descriptions it appears to me to be a commercial catalog.
Reservist1
Reservist1
joerookery
Well-known member
R1
A simple question that is not so easy to answer. I am not sure, as it does not appear to be neither fish nor foul. It is certainly aimed at those soldiers are not commissioned. It provides pricing options of individual purchases and bulk discounts for quantity purchases. The example below shows products available in quantities of 100, by the kilo, and for the Kammer.
I am not sure that there was such a thing as contract pricing. I can find no mention of such a thing in the Rechnungordnung. What I really need is a contract and a War Ministry budget, broken down by Army Corps. I finally found the budget for 1888. The entire War Ministry consisted of one entry! I can tell you a lot about the Navy budget in that document, but not the Army
A simple question that is not so easy to answer. I am not sure, as it does not appear to be neither fish nor foul. It is certainly aimed at those soldiers are not commissioned. It provides pricing options of individual purchases and bulk discounts for quantity purchases. The example below shows products available in quantities of 100, by the kilo, and for the Kammer.
I am not sure that there was such a thing as contract pricing. I can find no mention of such a thing in the Rechnungordnung. What I really need is a contract and a War Ministry budget, broken down by Army Corps. I finally found the budget for 1888. The entire War Ministry consisted of one entry! I can tell you a lot about the Navy budget in that document, but not the Army
Lost Skeleton
Well-known member
This illustration may help. At left is a O/R Brandenburg Dragoon; the Bavarian private purchase helmet is right. As one can see, only the Bavarian scales would fit Knopf 91 specifically measured for chinstrap use.reservist1 said:
I would argue the scales on my Bavarian would fit George's helmet; the Brandenburg scales would not.
Tony has described this in detail, but I haven't been able to find the bunker link.
Chas.
chrispaulodale
Active member
Robert said:
Hi Robert,
The original East Asian Expeditionary Corps Infantry of 1900 wore state plates and cockades. The cavalry, artillery and other branches wore Prussian plates and cockades.
On 9th Feburary 1901 these state insignia were officially replaced with imperial plates and cockades.
Cheers
Chris
Chris,
thanks for the info. Now that you pointed it out, it seems quite clear that it must have been during the intervention because the state insignia were rather contrary to the concept of the colonies being under imperial government. So actually, finding such a helmet with Prussian insignia would be quite rare it seems. I remember only one specimen, it would have costed €2000 at the time.
thanks for the info. Now that you pointed it out, it seems quite clear that it must have been during the intervention because the state insignia were rather contrary to the concept of the colonies being under imperial government. So actually, finding such a helmet with Prussian insignia would be quite rare it seems. I remember only one specimen, it would have costed €2000 at the time.