Authenticity of advertized helmet.

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drjohndraper

New member
Hello Everyone..
Pretty new to this forum..but very impressed with it's vitality.
My question today for general discussion is this :
I have seen a helmet, which has caught my attention being advertized by a dealer that provides a very full and useful description of the helmet as an Officer's helmet, Prussian army, from the Garde Fusilier Regiment.
The helmet is quite spectacular with all of the appropriate furniture,which seems to check out with my research as being correct.
Inj the description of this helmet, however, it is mentioned that under the liner are two extra holes which have been repaired, seemingly quite well, by placing circular pieces of leather over them.
The patches appear to be of the same soft pebbled leather as the inside of the skull and seem to show the same amount of patine.
I emphasize that the dealer is completely forthright about these 2 holes
and describes them as probably being "Period Change-Overs.
The helmet would represent a significant investment for me, so I need to know if this is a credible explanation.
Do you think this is an authentic helmet..
The helmet is listed at $5900 Is this a credible price
Thank-you in advance
Drjohndraper

Thank-you for your help
 
Hello Drjohndraper,

Welcome to the Forum!

Here's a couple of thoughts on the helmet, starting with the good side: It's entirely plausible that an officer who didn't have the spare money to purchase a helmet would have had an extra set of holes placed in the the shell to accomodate a new frontplate. Certainly with enlisted pattern helmets they had the arsenals re-work enlisted pattern helmets. I've had two or three examples in my collection where they had extra holes plugged by the re-work.

But here's the downside of aquiring such an example, no matter if it is entirely honest. And I say this with all due respect to the dealer, giving full credit that the piece is an honest wartime example w/the extra set of holes. 99% of the Collector Community will always view a helmet with extra holes in it as a "skeptical piece", suspect to suspicion, even if the extra holes were put in there during the wartime. The extra set of holes always hurts the value, and alway, always, always makes collectors suspicious and skeptical.

So the bottom line would be: if you purchase such a helmet with an extra set of holes for a different frontplate, be aware that if and when you ever wish to sell it, you'll have the "fun task" of explaining or making excuses as to why there's extra holes there. And you'll meet with an entire set of skepticism from a whole lot of collectors who will no longer be interested in purchasing the helmet when they learn about the extra set of holes for a different frontplate. I hope this makes sense to you.

If you're willing to be patient, you will most likely find a similar helmet with no extra holes behind the frontplate. And if you're willing to attend the Show of Shows in Louisville, KY the 18th thru 20th of February, or the MAX Show in Monroeville/Pittsburgh, PA the 30th Sept thru the 2nd of Oct, you'll most likely find a Guard Reg't of the Foot helmet available for purchase at one of these two fine shows.

As a side note, I was able to purchase at the 2008 MAX Show, a 5th Guard Reg't of the Foot/Guard Pioneer Officer Helmet (same silver guard eagle/spike/visor trim/backspine/rosettes w/gilt chinscales & retainer stars) for a mere 1/3 of the cost of this $5,900 helmet you are referring to. Mine doesn't have any extra holes behind the frontplate either. Again, patience will pay off for you in the long run, and you'll have a nicer, and an unquestionable example w/out any extra frontplate holes to add to your collection.

All the Best,

Alan Schaefer
 
Good advice from Alan.

Look at it this way, if you are already questioning it, then pass.

It very well could be legit, but as Alan stated, always going to be that question in the back of the mind??

And if you ever need to sell it, well then it starts all over again.

Price seams high as well

James
 
Here's something very serious to think about concerning this helmet. Again, I wish to clearly stress that I have no problems with either the helmet, nor the seller of this helmet. I've actually looked online at the dealer's listing of this helmet which you're interested in. It's a fabulous looking helmet indeed.

Here's my serious thoughts on the helmet in a nutshell. Remove the parade bush, put a silver spike on it (which it certainly would have had), and what sort of helmet do you have? Without the trichter & especially the color of the bush which is black in this case, this helmet can be any of the following if it is worn with the proper silver spike:

- 5.Garde-Regt. zu Fuß
- Garde-Füsilier-Regt.
- Garde-Pionier-Bataillon
- Eisenbahn-Regt. Nr.1-4

Now, here's the twist added back in simply because the color of the hair bush on the trichter is black, and hopefully my memory on this is not too fuzzy: 5. Garde-Reg't zu Fuß 1 & 2nd Batallions wore White Hair on the Trichters. The Garde-Fusilier Reg't wore the Black hair bush. But the same color of black hair bush was also worn on the Garde-Pionier-Batallion helmets, and also on the Eisenbahn-Regt helmets if my memory is correct.

So if this helmet being offered by this reputable dealer (again, I have no problems with him, or the helmet) is being offered as a Garde-Fusilier Helmet, I must state that it stands as such only because of the color of the parade bush, which is black. But in all honesty & reality, the piece can also be considered a Garde Pionier helmet, as well as an Eisenbahn-Regt Nr. 1-4 helmet also, specifically because they also wore the black parade bush. So which helmet is this helmet in all reality???? My belief is that you are looking at something that honestly has to also be considered as a Garde Pionier and an Eisenbahn-Regt 1-4 helmet, besides being a Garde Fusilier helmet, simply because the parade plume is black. That I believe, is the fact of the matter, unless there is someone's name in the helmet which can directly be attributed specifically to the former wearer/owner being in the Garde Fusilier Reg't, and matched to a Rangliste Book.

Again, I'm not stating that the helmet is being mis-represented, but simply pointing out that the black bush was not only worn by the Garde-Fusilier Reg't, but also by the Garde Pionier and Eisenbahn-Regt 1-4. Is this not correct in looking at the helmet in this light?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this???

All the Best,

Alan Schaefer
 
Alan,

Bravo! If you have done nothing else you have certainly given a great lesson on evaluating the helmet as opposed to the description. I do not know the helmet you're talking about but there are so many that you can do this switch or router with. I do believe however, that there is a difference in the color of the Rosette for two of those units you listed. As you said often is difficult if you do not have a direct tie-in to the name and even then it might not work out.
 
Thank-you gentlemen,
This was exactly what I was looking for in an explanation.
With a forum such as this, perhaps I will be able to avoid several expensive potential mistakes.
I will be back with some more technical questions later in the week.
Kind regards

john
 
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