Bavarian Chevaulegers officer helmet?

[chinstrap]

It's years since I bought a pickelhaube, as my main interest nowadays is British Victorian dress helmets, but I couldn't resist this one. After checking with Kaiser's Bunker and trawling through various posts about curved and flat chinscales I believe that it's to one of Regiments 2,4, 6, or 8. I concluded this because all fittings are neusibler, the combination of the 1886 wappen and curved chinscales indicates cavalry before 1914 , and the spike unscrews. If I've got this wrong, I'm happy to be put right.

The helmet has a number of issues which were taken into account in what I paid, but it displays very well and, as far as I'm concerned, it has lots of character.

I cleaned the fittings with Worcestershire Sauce, which works, and isn't abrasive-make sure to wipe/rinse off with water,or you'll have a very smelly helmet!

Issues -

1. Central crown has been broken off and reattached with a reinforcing plate.
2. A couple of missing chinscales.
3. Rear arm of spike base has a large silver star,but the other two are gilt and smaller.
4 Prongs to attach front arm to body are missing, so there is a gap between it and the body. I was considering removing the base and carefully bending this arm to fit, as Brian has described elsewhere, but the rear star is attached by prongs, and I don't want to risk damaging these. (The other stars are attached by screw posts.)
5. It's obviously been kept with all the weight on the visors,as the stitching on the front visor is loose, and it's distorted where the chin scales have rested on it, although this isn't obvious unless the chin scales are lifted. The rear, left side visor has also suffered damage to the stitching
6. The liner material was absolutely shot, one of the thin lengths of wood which forms the framework was broken and the liner itself was hanging by two threads. I decided to remove it to avoid any additional damage.

Overall , definitely not one for those of you who like your helmets in pristine , minty condition, but, as my late mother used to say 'it spoke to me'!

Any tips on where I might get a replacement wappen and silver stars? Also perhaps chin scales but again I'd be concerned about damaging the prongs on the rosettes.

Patrick

 

[SkipperJohn]

Personally I think that you have a wonderful helmet there. As someone else mentioned in this forum "If you are looking for perfection, you are in the wrong hobby". This is a great find with a lot of history and a lot of character. I would be proud to own it.
I believe the Wappen is the 1914 type since the lion tongues are sticking out. As far as the other parts you wish to replace there are dealers and sites that offer original (???) and repro parts.
It is all well and good to buy a pristine piece and set it in a cabinet, but often it is much more enjoyable to buy a piece that needs a little something. It may take years to find the original part, but that keeps the piece "alive", and there is nothing that compares to the feeling you have when you ultimately find the part and the piece becomes "finished". It feels like --- VICTORY!.

John

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Patrick if you replace the Wappen and chinscales (which you will find excruciatingly difficult to find) you will have a parts helmet. In its present state, its an original helmet. Give it a tune up if you wish, do some small repairs if you feel you need to, but I would encourage you to keep everything original.

 

[chinstrap]

Tony,thanks. My instinct is indeed to leave well alone, as it was the 'lived in' look and feel that attracted me. I thought I'd just test the water to see if the various parts were available. I take it my unit identification is right, as you haven't commented on it?

Patrick

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

// I believe the Wappen is the 1914 type since the lion tongues are sticking out. //

John all Bayern Wappen from 1886 onward have tongues. If a Wappen doesn't, then the tongues have broken off.

// . I take it my unit identification is right, as you haven't commented on it? //

I agree Patrick. As the scales are silver, Your options really are (with flat scales to 1914) Infanterie-Leib-Regt, Kgl. Bayer. Pionier-Bataillon 1-4, Kgl. Bayer. Telegraphen-Bataillon 1-2, Kgl. Bayer. Eisenbahn-Bataillon to Oct 1912, or (curved scales) Bayer. 1. Schweres Reiter-Regiment or Chevauleger Regt. 2, 4, 6, 8. As this is a 1886/87 Wappen, scales are curved, I think it is safe to say cavalry.

Worcestershire Sauce? Seriously? That's a new one :lol:

 

[SkipperJohn]

// I believe the Wappen is the 1914 type since the lion tongues are sticking out. //

John all Bayern Wappen from 1886 onward have tongues. If a Wappen doesn't, then the tongues have broken off.

// . I take it my unit identification is right, as you haven't commented on it? //

I agree Patrick. As the scales are silver, Your options really are (with flat scales to 1914) Infanterie-Leib-Regt, Kgl. Bayer. Pionier-Bataillon 1-4, Kgl. Bayer. Telegraphen-Bataillon 1-2, Kgl. Bayer. Eisenbahn-Bataillon to Oct 1912, or (curved scales) Bayer. 1. Schweres Reiter-Regiment or Chevauleger Regt. 2, 4, 6, 8. As this is a 1886/87 Wappen, scales are curved, I think it is safe to say cavalry.

Worcestershire Sauce? Seriously? That's a new one :lol:

Thanks Tony. I should have worded that better. I looked on your website to remind myself of the differences and it looks like the 1886 tongues are attached to the tail and there are leaves between the legs. The 1896 has rolled tongues attached to the upper jaw but there are no leaves between the legs. I was referring to the outstretched tongue, attached to nothing, that is an identifying factor on 1914 Wappens along with the missing leaves. I may be completely wrong but this has helped me identify 1896's from 1914's.

I completely agree that this helmet should be left alone. If it were mine I would probably look for a silvered brad to replace the front visor trim screw, but that would be it.

John

 

[poniatowski]

I think it's a very nice helmet as well. Since the rear star stud is the 'oddball', I'd risk bending the prongs in order to match the cross base to the body of the helmet. However, that's your call and it looks great as it is. yeah, mint condition helmets are few and far between and this example will display quite nicely.

How's the weather in Scotland? My wife and I really enjoyed visiting your country. We were taking a course on Bobby Burns in Edinburgh, but had a chance to take the trains east, west and south. I particularly enjoyed the Portrait Gallery in Edinburgh (of course all of the castles) and seeing Queen Elizabeth in Perth (Black Watch territory)

Ron

 

[chinstrap]

Thanks for all the positive comments. Nice to know that plenty of people appreciate a helmet with character.

Tony, yes, seriously, Worcestershire sauce did the job here, and I've also used it on my British helmets.

Ron, it's because I think that the rear silver star is the only original one that I don't want to risk damaging it. The gilt ones aren't right for this helmet as far as I know. Cool and dry here, with snow to come. Going to Edinburgh tonight, so I'll give it your regards! I live in Dunblane, about an hour north west.

John, there is no hole in the front arm to take a brad. The prongs (or maybe it was a screw post) were soldered to the underneath of the arm.

I really like silver on black leather- I may be struck by the pickelhaube bug again, and find I need a nice pioneer officer of some kind!

Patrick

 

[poniatowski]

Ron, it's because I think that the rear silver star is the only original one that I don't want to risk damaging it. The gilt ones aren't right for this helmet as far as I know. Cool and dry here, with snow to come. Going to Edinburgh tonight, so I'll give it your regards! I live in Dunblane, about an hour north west.
Patrick

That sounds good with the star. I didn't think of that right off the bat. I'll never forget my neeps (spelling?) taters and haggis at a pub on the Royal Mile (yum!) or the local beers (yummier). I also have a little Scottish blood in me. An ancestor was a Stuart, related to Mary Queen of Scotts.
It's been below zero F here, and warmed up today. Tonight we expect rain and freezing rain, so typical crazy Wisconsin weather.

Cheers!

Ron

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

// Thanks Tony. I should have worded that better. I looked on your website to remind myself of the differences and it looks like the 1886 tongues are attached to the tail and there are leaves between the legs. The 1896 has rolled tongues attached to the upper jaw but there are no leaves between the legs. I was referring to the outstretched tongue, attached to nothing, that is an identifying factor on 1914 Wappens along with the missing leaves. I may be completely wrong but this has helped me identify 1896's from 1914's. //

John you are completely right! I had never noticed that the 1886 Wappen lion's tongues are attached to the tail. :bravo:

I only ever immediately zoned in on the vines and leaves. I could not see the forest for the trees it seems....

 

[911car]

A very nice "speaking" helmet, Patrick. I like it too! And I agree with Tony: do not change the plate and chinscales. Simply add missing scales.
Bruno

 

[b.loree]

I am a little late to the conversation here....a great read. Excellent helme Patrick, those kokarden are huge!! I don't think I have seen ones that large. They look about the size of Kurassier kokarden. I was interested in the "star issue" so grabbed my copy of Laine. I checked all the units both infantry, Cav etc. The Bavarians unlike the Prussians did not use contrasting brass/gilt stars on their neusilber fittings. Consequently, it would seem that the large silver star is original and the brass ones are add ons. It would be very easy to remove the split brad star.....use the blade bit from one of those screw drivers which has all the different bits in the handle. Use it to gently pry the prongs up so you can reach in with a set of curved needle nose pliers. Grasp the prongs at their base close to the shell and squeeze them vertical. You then could make a brass prong for the front arm, solder it on and problem solved. You would anneal the star prongs with a propane torch (red hot) then quench in water. The prongs will bend back into place like new.
Regarding Scotland.....my mother was a War Bride from Edinburgh. She met my father at a dance in Princess Street Gardens. My tartan is MacKay (pronounced Mackae) and my grandmother was raised on a croft in Lochcarron. I visited once when I was 10 and my great uncle Duncan was still farming there.
It has been snowing here all day supposed to get 10-15 cm and again tomorrow. This has been a hard winter here.

 

[poniatowski]

John, I didn't know that about the lions' tongues! How interesting is that! That's just for officer type plates, correct?

Maybe we need a 'sticky' in the discussion area regarding Bavarian helmets too. I'm looking at a brass EM plate on my desk here, model 1896, tongues near the muzzle, not touching the tail. If I can get that G-D photobucket to work again, I'll post some photos soon on the discussion thread.

Brian, rough weather here too this week, but typical winter for us. Minus 10F for a week (sometimes warming to minus 2), then suddenly it warms up into the 30's and we now have ice. Schools let out early today and I don't know what tomorrow morning will be like.
As far as tartans go, I emailed somebody in Scotland to ask if I would actually be able to wear the Stuart tartan, but I think a great times five or more grandmother is too far distant to be in the clan. However, I'm proud of my mixed heritage!

Ron

 

[SkipperJohn]

John, there is no hole in the front arm to take a brad. The prongs (or maybe it was a screw post) were soldered to the underneath of the arm.

I wasn't talking about the cruciform base. I noticed that there is a screw on the front visor trim, on the right side. I would probably try to find a brad to replace that screw.

I didn't even notice the stars. In the photos they look silver to me.

John

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

John, I didn't know that about the lions' tongues! How interesting is that! That's just for officer type plates, correct?

There is no difference that I am aware of between Bayern Wappen when it comes to rank. The only one not worn by officers was the M1896 Foot Troops. All three of these are Neusilber.

 

[chinstrap]

Thanks again for all the positive comments, and the suggestions, although I'm still inclined to leave it as is.

John, my apologies, I didn't read your comment about the front visor fixing closely enough.

Bruno,how does one 'simply add missing scales'?

Brian, thanks for all the advice. I don't even own a soldering iron, so if I ever did decide to go down this route I would get a friend to do it for me , rather than make this piece my debut!

The kokarden are 55mm in diameter.

Tony, John et al - I am confused about the age of the wappen. As John says, the tongue (I hadn't noticed the absence of the other) doesn't reach the tail, but the leaves etc. which I thought were the identifying characteristic of the 1886 wappen are there. I would appreciate some clarification.

I'm trying to get my head round the levels of cold some of you guys are describing!

I have Irish and Scottish heritage. Some connections in the US from the Irish diaspora, but no Scottish ones in North America so far as I know.

Patrick

 

[poniatowski]

Tony, that's perfect! The one I was looking at was an EM 1896 style without any piercing between the tongue and the jaws. I'll post a photo in the Discussion thread when I get the time.

Yup, Patrick, I can tell you this about cold weather. It's all relative. When I was in Kuwait, it went from the 70's one fine January day to the 40's Fahrenheit the next (21 to 4 C). It felt like it was 16 F (-9C), so I didn't blame the Kuwaitis for acting cold. Also, when I worked outside at the airport we had a month of -20 F (-29C) weather. When the temperature rose to 0 F (-18C), we actually took our coats off and worked in our shirt sleeves. Also, one night when the wind chill was -50F (-46C) and I was freezing my butt off, I couldn't help but greet a business jet from Florida's 21C weather in my shirt sleeves eating an ice cream bar. It was worth the jaw dropping reaction of the people, even if it did take me all night to warm up again.
Hot weather, on the other hand, is just hot. 140F (60) in the sun (120F air temp) in the middle of the summer in Iraq was no treat.

Cheers!

Ron