Bavarian Generals questions.

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
The enamel wappen of Bavarian Generals have been faked. How do you tell? I have been told that if the crown of the upper left lion touches the border it is a bad sign.. Dave knew something but I don't know what.

Here is a real odd Bavarian General.
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Tarnished silver, real thin, prongs, and I cannot btell how new the solder is. Not dark.

The crown DOES touch (top red arrow).
The "bar" and edges are silver....never seen this (bottom arrow).
My wappen in gold is shown for comparison. Crown does not touch and gold "bar".
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But get a load of this. Interior support disk is huge and round. There is a monagrammed plug in the spike hole.
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This came from a very reputable source. Any thoughts? Any idea on the monogram?
 
Joe: Interesting helmet. I know copies of the Bavarian General's enamel center pieces were made in the UK in the 1970's. I will check with a couple of people and see if there is an easy way to distinguish them from originals. I have never seen the bar on the enamel piece silvered. The very large support plate is seen on late Bavarian officers helmets. The following image is a Bavarian officer helmet with M15 style spike base but standard chinscale rosettes.



The button with the monogram is really odd. It seems that with the piece in place there would be no ventilation to the helmet. How is that piece attached to the helmet?

Reservist1
 
How is that piece attached to the helmet?
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Good question ... I don't know. I could not see from above when the spike was unscrewed and the "button" is very snug and will not twist.
I will check with a couple of people and see if there is an easy way to distinguish them from originals.
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Thank you I really would like to know.
VR/Joe
 
Joe: Apparently the most obvious thing about most of the reproduction Bavarian General's enameled centers is that the small applied shield in the middle is thicker than the originals.

Reservist1
 
Hey Guys,

I've been trying to research this for some time.. as I've been looking for a Bavarian General's helm for one of my tunics.

From what I have found (but based only on pictures and conversations with many old time collectors) is that the crown on the lion on the top left should be red enamaled center INSIDE the crown.

It seems that all the fakes have this as a solid gold without the red.

Also.. to mention.. that the helm you have pictured here looks to have a prussian or wurt spike as it roles 'under' and does not go over the base lip.

For what it's worth !

Cheers
Mark
 
From what I have found (but based only on pictures and conversations with many old time collectors) is that the crown on the lion on the top left should be red enamaled center INSIDE the crown.
It seems that all the fakes have this as a solid gold without the red.
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Mark this is great! However your honor I disagree. Hilsenbeck pg 67 and others show BLACK enamel inside the crown. Neither solid nor red. The silver job is solid silver. Great discussion! I agree the leather backing and back plate detail are VERY suspect.
 
Hey Joe,

I'll match your bet.. and raise you....

In the book "The German Army in the First World War" by Jurgen Kraus... He has pictured on the front inside page, a large close-up of a general's plate. Clearly showing the red enamled interior on the crown and it also shows white enameled center on the lower crown.

Kraus's pictures come fom the collection of the Bayerisches Armeemuseum.

Also, the bavarian general's helmet pictured in Randy Trawnic's book also has the red interior....

As far as a black interior.. I have not seen one... but the onesthat I DO stay away from are the ones that are solid gold with NO enamel.

Cheers
Mark
 
I call! But I will only pay in pizza and beer next year and you must be present to win! BTW Gus has extra rooms in the La Quinta. I looked at the Bav book with no clear closeup and Stubbs with a red one and a solid gold one. Solid Gold and touching both scare me but I don't think we have "proved" much.
 
I had the opportunity to see two Bavarian plates, a false one and an original, in my hands. The false was, probably, one of the falsified in the seventies. In spite of me to be far away from being an expert in the subject, my years of work with antiquities gave me some know how with enamel, and I can guarantee, the enamels done after the fifties - sixties, they never got to obtain the same quality and, more important, the same tonality of colors of the enamels of the XIX century and of the begin of the XX century.
Just my opinion.
Otto
 
I don't have stubb's book.... where did he get his helmets from for the pictures ?

Museum inventory in my opinion would have more 'weight' than items from personal collections.

Just my opinion ......

Cheers
Mark
 
Museum inventory in my opinion would have more 'weight' than items from personal collections.
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Stubbs has stuff from all over many private.Kraus is the man but I cannot get himto answer my emails.
 
I would also mention that for "true" enameled bavarian helmet medallions, the corresponding plate is modified to fit it properly. The oval on the wappen is actually cut out and a rounded brass backing (with no relief or pattern) is neatly soldered to the wappen which corresponds to the contour of the enamel medallion which typically has threaded posts and nuts. The enameled medallion also fits so the lions claws around it actually look like they are holding it. In the examples shown on this thread, the gild wappen looks proper while the silver wappen does not.

Dave
 
Dave,

Hope you are settled now! I have to admit I'm lost on yur last post though I had heard that the back was the only way to tell. Explain more please.
 
Hey, Joe! About half settled...My wife, kids, dogs...and more important, my collection are still in KY! All should be settled within a month. I think Mark may still have a couple of pics of a bavarian generals helmet he was entertaining last year. If not, the best way to describe a true bavarian "generals" plate is when the actual bavarian wappen with the central oval (with crest) is completely removed by a jewler (or other artisian) and a smooth slightly domed oval piece of brass is fitted in its place and lead soldered to the wappen. The enameled medallion is a separate piece that matches the same domed piece of brass in shape on the wappen. Typically, two holes are made in the smooth domed brass on the wappen so the posts and nuts from the separate medallion can attach to the plate. Bottom line is that the posts and screws ona true bavarian "generals' medallion is not simply placed on an unaltered wappen, like the reservist cross is.

I sure hope Mark still has those photos....

Dave
 
Of course Mark still has his pictures..... Marky keeps everything 8)

I have a couple of problems with this plate... one which I never noticed until I looked at this picture a couple of days ago......

It's a pre-1913 plate... not the second pattern plate that would normally use this enamaled plate.....

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