Bavarian GFM epaulettes on the Helmut Weitze site

KAGGR#1

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
I have a question about the pair of epaulettes for sale on the Helmut Weitze site .
I don't understand Bavarian items very well.
And I have no Bavarian GFM straps or epaulettes to go by
I have quite a few Prussian GFM straps , including those of Kaiser Wilhelm II
On Prussian straps & epaulettes the GFM crossed batons are always silver
On this pair of Bavarian , the crossed batons are gold/ gilt color
Can someone tell me why ?
Thanks
SteveH W 1.jpgH W 2.jpgH W 3.jpg
 
The Bavarian GFM's batons were gold-plated before 1904. Rupprecht was not a GFM until 1916. But this kind of thing has happened in history, so went against the regulation again! This detail was probably neglected by the maker? Maybe this pair was made postwar?
The rank stars for generals' epaulettes are always gold-plated I think. They are silver-plated on the shoulder boards.
 
My first impression looking at the boards is something doesn't fit.

They look forced or put together.

In the last picture the cypher just looks like they tried to make it fit and ran out of room.

I would think the cypher would lay flat or at least fit better. It looks like the prongs on the back of the cypher don't fully go into the fabric and wouldn't hold it onto the board properly.

Looking at the boards there is enough space, just by moving up the crown a bit everything would fit perfectly.

It's just my gut feeling that it would be put together better, looks unfinished to me, but and it's a big but I don't own any Imperial field Marshals boards so it's just my two cents.
 
Jvpi said:
The Bavarian GFM's batons were gold-plated before 1904. Rupprecht was not a GFM until 1916. But this kind of thing has happened in history, so went against the regulation again! This detail was probably neglected by the maker? Maybe this pair was made postwar?
The rank stars for generals' epaulettes are always gold-plated I think. They are silver-plated on the shoulder boards.
Click to expand...
That brings up another question
If he was not a GFM until 1916
would they still be wearing epaulettes in 1916 ?
Maybe made after the war ???
Steve
 
KAGGR#1 said:
That brings up another question
If he was not a GFM until 1916
would they still be wearing epaulettes in 1916 ?
Maybe made after the war ???
Steve
Click to expand...
Steve, that’s a great point. In 1916 I don’t think they’d be wearing full dress uniforms with epaulettes, just Feldgrau with shoulder boards. That’s pretty much what they wore post war as well. Most photos of Prince Rupprecht post war, including formal portraits, I’ve only seen him in Feldgrau.
And I agree with John Josef, there was plenty of room on the epaulettes to fit the cypher properly, but it looks like it was crammed in after the boards were put together.
Dennis
 
The Weitze write up in English
Munich location, around 1914. Large version, the fields with ponceau red cloth, silver braids with blue stripes, golden moons, rigid silver cantils, the marshal's batons in the special Bavarian version, above the "Kurhut" awarded in 1894 and below the corresponding cipher " ME”, with red cloth underlays. Lightly worn. Condition 2.

An object of museum importance! Traditionally, the Bavarian King was the owner of the Life and 1st Infantry Regiments, while the Crown Prince was the owner of the 2nd Infantry Regiment "Crown Prince". With the accession to the throne of Rupprecht's father King Ludwig III of Bavaria. In November 1913 he officially became Crown Prince of Bavaria and thus became the owner of the "Crown Prince" regiment on November 5th. When the First World War broke out, Rupprecht of Bavaria took over command of the German 6th Army on August 2, 1914, which was deployed on the Western Front in Lorraine.
 
Interesting, Jvpi observes that the baton’s were gold plated before 1904, and these are listed as 1914, so again, should they not be silver? Plus if they are from 1914, that’s two years prior to Rupprecht becoming a feldmarshall…so?
 
I also raised the same question. It probably was made postwar for Rupprecht to attend some special regimental or veteran events, etc. Or the pair has never belonged to anyone, just a period replica from the 1920s. Or a put-together item by someone, to my knowledge Weitze sometimes does this too.
 
Jvpi said:
I also raised the same question. It probably was made postwar for Rupprecht to attend some special regimental or veteran events, etc. Or the pair has never belonged to anyone, just a period replica from the 1920s. Or a put-together item by someone, to my knowledge Weitze sometimes does this too.
Click to expand...
Let's see IF they sell
Steve
 
KAGGR#1 said:
Let's see IF they sell
Steve
Click to expand...

9000 Euros is a lot of money to gamble with.

The limited number of collectors who are in the market for such items like yourself Steve are IMO experienced collectors and not willing to gamble that amount unless there are no questions or red flags at all.

Several great points have been made by members here as well as yourself that just can't be explained away.
 
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John Josef said:
9000 Euros is a lot of money to gamble with.

The limited number of collectors who are in the market for such items like yourself Steve are IMO experienced collectors and not willing to gamble that amount unless there are no questions or red flags at all.

Several great points have been made by members here as well as yourself that just can't be explained away.
Click to expand...
I agree
Steve
 
In my opinion, the epaulettes were assembled after the war. Prefabricated items are not uncommon on the Weitze website, in my opinion. I don't like these epaulettes - they are not made neatly for GFM!
PS It would be a real success to buy real Prince Ruprecht epaulettes. Prince Ruprecht was a very interesting person. I read Sir Max Hastings. I don't want to open a discussion, but I read from him that in his opinion, Germany lost the First World War already in 1914. Due to the mistakes of Prince Ruprecht
 
Reingold said:
In my opinion, the epaulettes were assembled after the war. Prefabricated items are not uncommon on the Weitze website, in my opinion. I don't like these epaulettes - they are not made neatly for GFM!
PS It would be a real success to buy real Prince Ruprecht epaulettes. Prince Ruprecht was a very interesting person. I read Sir Max Hastings. I don't want to open a discussion, but I read from him that in his opinion, Germany lost the First World War already in 1914. Due to the mistakes of Prince Ruprecht
Click to expand...
Interesting post
Thanks
Steve
 
I once photographed pictures for you from a book of the Bavarian rank insignia. In the clothing regulations from 1904 it was specified that edge stars on the armpits and shoulder braids should be worn gold-plated. But there is nothing here about the epaulettes!!
 

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Steve, I think photo #4 in Reiner’s post is what the epaulettes should look like (since it actually is Prince Rupprecht’s) with the cypher mounted on the crossed batons.
Great post, Reiner!
 
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