Bayer Tschapka, 1st Ulan Regtement

A

Alba

New member
Hello,
I was wondering if any members have any good photographs of a Bavarian Tschapka issued to the 1st Ulan Regiment. I am interested in the type issued to Other Ranks/Enlisted men.
A good friend of mine has a 1909 dated Bavarian Tschapka, with issue marks to the 1st squadron, 1st Ulan Regiment. It seems to be in nice original condition, but does have an usual liner. The liner is not the square ended type tab, but has 'tongues' with eyes at the end. The liner does look original to the helmet, or at least been there for a very long time. The mounts and badge are of course of the brass type as you would expect on a 1st Ulan Regiment Tschapka
I will see if I can get some photographs of it. I would love to see anything similar that forum members may have. This is my first post on the forum, but I was keen to start after spending the last hour or so reading some very interesting threads!
Thank you
Alba
 
Here is an internal view. You can see the unit stamp in the crown of the helmet. The liner seems to have been there a long time. There are some small worn holes in the liner where it folds at the point where it joins the shell of the helm. Through the holes you can see a thin round strip of cane/bamboo or what ever it is. I have seen this on other Tschapka.
Alba
 
Anyone have any thoughts or comments? Overall does it look good? I have never handled a Tschapka before, so am out of my depth, although overall I think it looks like a very nice helmet.
Alba
 
A great piece as far as I am concerned Stewart! I would not worry about that liner it shows years of wear. The tongues may not be the typical square type BUT having the metal eyes is in those round ones is characteristic of originals. One thing thought concerning the feldzeichen you should be able to see hand stitching between the white and blue cloth. I see moth grazing but no stitches. Welcome again to the forum and great to see you posting and asking questions!
 
Hello Brian,
Thank you for taking the time to look at this helmet, I am glad you can see no major problems with it. In fact I have seen a similar Bavarian one on this forum with what looks like a very similar liner. This other Tschapka aslo dated from a pre war period. I am now beginning to wonder if this is they type of liner that the Bavarians used? The Bavarians often seem to have done there own thing, I understand they took a long time to introduce the Pickelhaube as well.
Do you think the fieldbadge is off a different type of helmet? It does seem to have age to it. I will see if I can get some clearer picture of it.
One last question, would this helmet be an Other Ranks/enlisted mans helmet, or a junior NCO's? It has an Officers pattern hook for the cap lines.
Regards.
 
b.loree said:
A great piece as far as I am concerned Stewart! I would not worry about that liner it shows years of wear. The tongues may not be the typical square type BUT having the metal eyes is in those round ones is characteristic of originals. One thing thought concerning the feldzeichen you should be able to see hand stitching between the white and blue cloth. I see moth grazing but no stitches. Welcome again to the forum and great to see you posting and asking questions!
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Having the metal eyes is in those round ones is characteristic of originals of what? A tschapka liner? Not one that I have ever seen.

Does no one recognise that this has a Raupenhelme liner?
 
Hello WW1 collector,
That's very interesting about the liner. Have you seen many pre-war Bavarian Ulan Helmets? I am very interested to know what type of liner they had. On this post - http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4303" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; there are photo's of a pre war Bavarian Ulan Hemet which appears to have a similar lining. I have contacted the owner to see if he would be happy to post some photo's of the liner. It's only the second pre war marked Bavarian Tschapka that I have seen the liner in, but it too seems original to the helmet. As you will understand I am keen to know if this is a common Bavarian type liner.
I am keen to hear all thoughts on this matter and to see other examples.
 
Normally the liner should have the squared tongues as you mentioned yourself... but also, look at the condition of the entire Tschapka. The body is in much better condition than the liner. They just don't match at all. The body is still very good, the liner bearly stays in one piece...
The feldzeichen is also not what I would expect to see...
Sorry, but in my opinion it's a parts helmet, but that's just my two cents of course...

Adler
 
Oh, I don't think I would go as far as it being a parts helmet. There is no sign of the helmet plate having been replaced, and there is no marks of a different plate having been on it. The plate is also the correct colour and pattern for a pre war made 1st Ulan Regiment helmet. It would need to be a very lucky rebuild to get these details correct.
My only concern with it is the liner type, but as I mention there does appear to be another known pre war Bavarian Ulan helmet with the same type of liner. In the flesh the liner is not as tired as the photographs make it appear. It fits very well and does not really look like it has been added later. It is by no means the first time I have seen an antique helmet where the liner looks more tired than the rest of the helmet. This can be caused by a number of reasons. But to be honest, I just cannot make up my mind. I have contacted the Bavarian Military Museum to see if they hold any examples of a Pre War Ulan Tschapka and to see if this type of liner was used.
However, all that said it is great to hear what other collector think and to hear your thoughts
Many thanks,
Alba
 
The OR's feldzeichen should have visible stitches where the blue centre is stitched to the white background. On reproductions the coloured centre is simply glued on. If memory serves, we had a discussion about feldzeichen with pictures years ago on the forum.
As to the liner....it could be raupen helme style ie the fingers however, if we are suggesting that it came out of such a helme, I would disagree. The unique shape of a tschapka would not fit with a regular circular liner. In addition, we can see that the liner has the correct bamboo renforcement around the edge of the helme. I have made, replacement regular OR's liners and stitched them in, its a lot of work. I could not imagine trying to duplicate a tschapka liner and I do not know any restorers who have done so. The tschapka liner is stitched twice, once around the rim of the shell and then again to form a pocket for the strips of bamboo. It is truly a specialty item, I know of no other helmet that uses this system.
As to the metal eyelets.....I have never seen an original OR's tschapka liner without them. The tip of the tounge is folded over to square it and an eylet rivets it in place. The officer has the usual custom silk with calf skin sweat band.
 
Hello,
Thanks for your thoughts. I am popping over to see my friend at the weekend so I will ask him if it OK to take some more photo's of the Feldzeichen. I never really paid that much attention to that part. Thank you very much for the information regarding how the liner is attached to a Tschapka. It sounds like a lot of hard work to originally fit them.
Out of general interest, did the German Imperial Army ever source replacement items 'Locally'? For example in the British Army when they were out in India or Egypt they sometime employed local manufactures to make replacement badges. When the Germans were in France, Belgium or in the east during WW1 did they do something similar? It's just a thought, more out of general interest rather than trying to prove anything.
I have searched the forum for Feldzeichen and see what you mean about the stitching. What a great forum, it's great to see so many rare items in private collections and to have the chance to speak to other collectors and share thoughts.
I hope to hear from the Bavarian Military Museum in the next week or so. It will be interesting to hear what they say. The problem I am having at the minute is that I cannot find another example of a Pre War Tschapka to a Bayern Ulan Regiment which shows a clear photo of the liner.
Regards,
Alba
 
did the German Imperial Army ever source replacement items 'Locally'?
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Yes indeed, in fact we have some pretty good information from the Bavarian archives about what I would call "local" procurement in 1914. However, not so much in 1912. This would have gone through the normal Bavarian procurement process in 1909.

I hope to hear from the Bavarian Military Museum
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Good luck with this. I have found the German entities to be very very helpful sometimes literally falling all over themselves give you extra information. However, the Bavarian military Museum seems to be the one real exception. Maybe I have written to the wrong guys in the past.
 
Good news regarding the Field Badge, it does have stitching between the centre and surrounding cloth. It is not too clear, but is very visible under an eye glass. I will try and get some photographs. I think they are not very clear because the white part has been whitened at some point. This look to have been done years ago and is very similar to the type of product I have seen on examples of historic British kit. It is very much like old white Blanco. I presume the Imperial German Army was also very keen on spit and polish and there troops would also spend much time improving and cleaning their kit? As I say the colour and texture of this whiting makes me think it was done years ago, it just has the right feel and colour to it. Also, where the whiting has fallen away, the weave of the cloth looks very similar to known original examples posted on this forum.
I had another, closer look at the liner. The bamboo cane is stitched into it's own compartment, just like Brian thought it should be. It is clear a lot of work has gone into making and fitting it to the rest of the helmet. It does not appear to be something which has been 'forced' to fit.
So far I have had one reply from the Bavarian Military Museum. They asked for my home address so that they can answer my enquiry in full once they have examined there holdings. I will, of course publish their findings here when I have it. I just think it is strange that the only other image I can find of a pre war Bavarian Tschapka shows the same pattern of liner. There must be other original examples of pre 1914 made Bavarian Tschapkas out there. I have to say the more I look at and handle this helmet, the more I like it.
Alba
 
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