Brunswick busby

pointystuff

pointystuff

Active member
http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-IMPERIAL-GERMAN-BRUNSWICK-17th-HUSSAR-EM-BUSBY-/190520083298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5be1c362

The inside seems to be some sort of bed ticking, with a section at an angle to the rest.

The cane supporting frame is held with wire and string and one of the staves seems to be dangling loose---or it's not quite long enough to reach.

The skull on the front has some tiny pock marks on it...like a casting, maybe.

For an issue H.R. 17 busby, isn't it a little short-haired compared to most of them?

The liner seems more like the private purchase type, rather than the handful of large, pointed tongues.

Hmmm...
 
Good observations guys ! the accessories (front badge, cord etc) seem to be original, and the cord especially seems to be yellow, but difficult to see on picture, the chin scales seem to be quite nice, as for a NCO or some extra helm, .... ?????
 
Something going on with that Pelzmütze... the restoration using wire I can understand, would not bother me, but there are two patterns of Totenkopf for HR17, pre-war with a distinctive clear ribbon, and a wartime with a "muted" ribbon, but neither have voided teeth. Voided teeth on the TK was only seen on the early Tschako TK for IR92 Leib-Batl. It would be interesting to see the back of Smiley. These came in both seal skin as well as bear fur. This one is seal.
 
The gap-toothed skull looks much like one available from Stephan Militaria some years ago. Johansson's book shows one with voided teeth on p. 104--although that doesn't necessarily mean it's real. His IR 92 M15 helmet with a Prussian line plate comes to mind.

What do you make of the oddly angled striped fabric inside?
 
Hi Tony,
here are some pics of the "smiley" :D





Looks old, I havn't any good illustration of these old JR92 tshakos, would be interesting to compare with,
can't tell you more, I did not get it in hands, just viewed on pics !
have a nice day guys :)
Steve
 
Hi Tony, thanks for your compliments :D .... but maybe you misunderstood my post, I'm not fluent in english and I have to be clearer:
These pics are taken from the badge on this HR17 Pelmutze/busby.

If you confirm this identification, is it possible to find on a 1916 dated HR17 busby an "old" Brunswick badge ?

to be more precise, is it a post-war realization (vet society, theater, trophy seeker, etc) or it is an ersatz type decision, during the war to use what was available ?

the other parts of the busby look really original, cord, field badge etc

thanks for your interest in this discussion :)
 
Stephane,

That is not what I expected. Anything is "possible", however, the zinc cast Tschako are very heavy as you know as you have it in your hand.

It could be period, could be made for a theatre company or costume house, could be made by a collector. In my humble opinion I am afraid there is no way to know. The only thing that would make me comfortable with this Pelzmütze, would be to see a period photo of the old pattern Tschako Totenkopf on a Pelzmütze.

It is still a very nice original Tschako Totenkopf though.
 
A Pelzmütze für Mannschaften des Husarenregiments Nr. 17 with the exact same Totenkopf it seems was sold by Hermann Historica earlier this month for EUR 3,000.

Check-out Item Nr. 4965 @ http://www.hermann-historica.com
 
RON said:
A Pelzmütze für Mannschaften des Husarenregiments Nr. 17 with the exact same Totenkopf it seems was sold by Hermann Historica earlier this month for EUR 3,000.

Check-out Item Nr. 4965 @ http://www.hermann-historica.com
Click to expand...

Ron, you are mistaken. The one at HH had the pre-war HR17 Husaren Totenkopf. See how the teeth are not voided and it has a clearly defined ribbon around the femurs?

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm61.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=4965&t=temartic_O_GB&db=kat61_o.txt
 
You're right Tony; after checking the magnified view, even the nose is different.... My bad! :oops:

While we're at it, you should check-out HH's lot Nr. 5139... Awesome Pelzmütze für Wachtmeister that sold for EUR 4,000. I think it was discussed in a previous thread while it was pending auction.
 
Other than the non-voided teeth, plus a well-defined ribbon around the bones where they cross, what other signs should be present on a real busby plate for H.R. 17, then?

For example, were they always attached with bent tabs?

The one on p. 104 of Johansson’s book has voided teeth and may be
suspect. On the other hand, the one in Reiner Herrmann’s Militärische Kopfbedeckungen der Kaiserzeit (p. 87) has a rather poorly defined ribbon wrapped around the crossed bones and seems to be brass that's lost its silvery plating.
 
I have never seen a HR17 Totenkopf with M95 loops. Only brass split brads.

There are two patterns of Mannschaften Braunschweigisches Husaren-Regt. Nr.17 Totenkopf. The most commonly seen one is Neusilber and has a clear distinctive ribbon on an angle on the two crossed femurs.

Photographic evidence caused me admit that there was a second pattern, which I believe is wartime (1914?) that has a much less defined and rather 'muted' ribbon. I vote wartime as they are stamped brass and silvered on the outside only, the same as wartime Leib Husaren Totenkopf were.

The stamping is very deep, clean, and except for the muted ribbon, the shape and every detail to the bones, eyes, nose, etc are absolutely correct. I have found two period photos showing them being worn, so that ended all doubt in my mind.
 
The skull on p. 87 of the Herrmann book may be a wartime part, then.
The one in Johansson, however, might be a Tschako plate, based on the discussion above.
 
Hi, thanks for this interesting discussion,
I agree that period photos could help a lot, in order to confirm the possibility that this kind of voided teeth skull was worn, or not

I've seen recently on ebay a nice pic showing 3 HR17 hussars but did not upload the pic, the hussar on the right had a skull possibly with voided teeths, did any of you save this pic ?
here's the link : http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290550618179ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

concerning the herman historica pelmutze, I had it in hands, since I could visit them in Munich. These guys are very friendly and I could take my time checking some helmets. the only problem was that my wife and the kids were waiting for me at the hotel to go and visit the Deutschemuseum, very nice place !!!! but less time to "loose" in HH :(

from my point of view, that pelmutze is "less original" (!) than the one sold on ebay, just give a look a it and you'll certainly feel like me that the general impression is that all part have been assembled some day, and the fur is not damaged at all, even in the places where it should.... the other one (ebay) looks more like what we expect from a 90 years old fur pelmutze ..... other minor negative details made that I did not bid on that one, and honestly it did not sell for a normal price .....
:)
Here's the ebay one : (I've not been able to download the HH picture ... protected ?)
 
Tony without Kaiser said:
I have never seen a HR17 Totenkopf with M95 loops. Only brass split brads.

There are two patterns of Mannschaften Braunschweigisches Husaren-Regt. Nr.17 Totenkopf. The most commonly seen one is Neusilber and has a clear distinctive ribbon on an angle on the two crossed femurs.

Photographic evidence caused me admit that there was a second pattern, which I believe is wartime (1914?) that has a much less defined and rather 'muted' ribbon. I vote wartime as they are stamped brass and silvered on the outside only, the same as wartime Leib Husaren Totenkopf were.

The stamping is very deep, clean, and except for the muted ribbon, the shape and every detail to the bones, eyes, nose, etc are absolutely correct. I have found two period photos showing them being worn, so that ended all doubt in my mind.
Click to expand...

I forgot to react to this very usefull info, could you find time to draw a sketch showing these 2 patterns ? It would be very usefull ! I can provide you with a pic of the skull on mine, don't know which pattern it is ....
thanks in advance :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top