Can somebody help to identify

R

rurik22

Member
Cork + web :-k

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Fully removable, fixed with metal hooks
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Thanks by advance
 
Wow! I have never seen anything like that ever. Everything looks ok but I have never seen that Marine wappen put on a helmet like that with a cruciform spike base.
 
:eek:
This would be SUPER rare if it is an original.
It is possible that the Marine experimented with haubes. It looks good, i agree.
Some creative minds doo exploit the experimental given , A periodic picture would exclude any doubt .
 
I'll throw one more idea out there... could this be for a movie prop that was given the extra care to make it seem real? I wrote something for my MilitarySunHelmets.com site on the Kaiser's tropical uniforms:
http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2012/the-last-kaisers-other-tropical-attire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I noted in that article there was a German made documentary that offered some recreations of the Kaiser's visit to Jerusalem. Look at the photo below and note the soldier behind the Kaiser. Not the exact pattern helmet, but something close. There were a number of recent documentaries and movies that have come out, so I do wonder if this piece wasn't for one of those and someone added enough to the helmet to make it seem real.

Documentary-Photo_zps7fa72e50.jpg
 
The wappen is mostly attached to the helmet with lugs or screws, to be able to remove it safely for cleaning,
With split pins, you can only remove it so many times before the pins will break off.
Could they be welded in there to fit the helmet holes ?

Just brainstorming here …

Movie prop ? I don't think so ,that would be the most detailed movie prop ever...but you never know ...
 
I agree about the wappen. If this is a fake, then it's one heck of a nice one, since everything goes together so well and the aging is subtle, rather than over done as is usually the case. I do like the look of this helmet and as I stated before (was this on a thread elsewhere? Or maybe my comment was just lost). IF I were stationed in the Middle East or some arid / tropical area, I'd prefer this style to the more English looking Tropenhelm, although it wouldn't protect from the sun as well.
:-k

:D ROn
 
The wappen is mostly attached to the helmet with lugs or screws, to be able to remove it safely for cleaning,
With split pins, you can only remove it so many times before the pins will break off.
Click to expand...

Ed, the metal on the officer Wappen would have been Mercury Gilded and did not require cleaning per se. With my luck split pins could only be bent one time and that could really be dangerous. Brian had some sort of technique where you heated up the prongs but I had visions of blowtorches on a helmet with Brian as the mad scientist. I am sure that people like Cameron know what to do to get those on and off but I just will not risk it. I think Peter is on the right track… Finding the right photograph… Cruciform base??

ps2005 by joerookery, on Flickr

The only Palestine picture I have is a complete disappointment but it has a really unique piece of headgear that shows how "unique that headgear was" on those missions.

ps3151 by joerookery, on Flickr

Imperial Footman in Palestein

from Glenn J
I am going to tentatively identify this guy as Kammerdiener (mit dem Titel Büchsenspanner)Joseph Rollfing (1856-1920). He, along with Kammerdiener Wilhelm Schulze accompanied the Kaiser on the 1898 Palestine trip. However only Büchsenspanner Rollfing had a Turkish Medjidie Order (5th Class). Interestingly neither Herr Rollfing or Schulze paid to have their Jerusalem Crosses listed in the 1908/1909 Orders Almanach.


from Chris Dale's Website <a href="http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/kaiser in palestine.htm" rel="nofollow">s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/kaise...</a>

Kaiser Wilhelm II's Expedition to Palestine 1898
The Kaiser had a passion for uniforms and his expedition to Palestine ("Palästina-Reise") in 1898 offered a chance to to have a whole new range of khaki tropical uniforms with tropical helmets or side caps designed for himself and many of his entourage. This included generals and staff officers, the imperial bodyguard ("Leib-Gendarmerie"), footmen and other attendants.


Imperial Footmen
I have so far found very little information on the footmen of the imperial entourage. What I have written here is based only on observation of several period photographs and one colour illustration of their home uniform (printed in "The Kaiser's Warlords" by R Pawly and P Courcelle, Osprey Elite 97).

The collar and plain turn-back cuffs of the khaki tunic were black for officers and senior NCOs and khaki for junior NCOs and other ranks, both were edged in the same lace as worn on their home uniforms. This lace was white edged in red and back and had black Prussian eagles along its length. They wore no shoulder straps. Some photographs show footmen with plain khaki trousers or riding breeches, and some show a broad white stripe on the outside seem.

Their tropical helmets appear to have been from a different manufacturer to the helmets worn by the staff and Leibgendarmerie. They may have been bought from several different sources. Some appear rounder than the Leibgendarmerie helmets, some appear similar to British army helmets of the period (see photographs below). The tropical helmets of the footmen had no spike or eagle on the front, but from period photographs it appears that some members had a small cockade at the front to replace the two on the sides worn by the Leibgendarmerie and general officers. Officers had yellow metallic cords around the hatband of the tropical helmet. The side cap appears in period photographs to have been plain khaki without cockades.

from <a href="http://www.israelidecorations.net/Foreign/Foreign_VisitKaiserWilhelm1898.htm" rel="nofollow">www.israelidecorations.net/Foreign/Foreign_VisitKaiserWil...</a>
Jerusalem Cross
The Jerusalem Cross ("Jerusalem-Erinnerungskreuz 1898") was awarded to members of Kaiser Wilhelm II's entourage that accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem in 1898. This included staff officers, his personal bodyguard ("Leibgendarmerie") and other attendants.
The medal consisted of a Jerusalem Cross (made up of four smaller crosses around a larger central one) in red enamel edged in gold hung on a red ribbon.

I will ask Chris to give this one quick look – he is the man on this kind of stuff.
 
Joe, that's a good point, but I don't have a gilt wappen without screw mounts. Is that a war-time expedient, the split brads? I know these come up once in a while on ebay, but it's another area of ignorance for me. I always think screws or loops.

:D Ron
 
Can we see an overall pic of the interior with the lining folded down in place? That could tell us a lot.

"Movie prop ? I don't think so ,that would be the most detailed movie prop ever...but you never know ..."

I made the prop pith helmet in the movie Jumanji, pictured below, and it was as detailed as an original in every respect, save that the internal body was moulded in hard foam!

 
I made the prop pith helmet in the movie Jumanji,
Click to expand...

Really! Extremely cool! Way Way cool!

Alright I'm not ready to put a nail into this one yet. I had a conversation with Chris and there are certainly some questions/abnormalities which puts the Palestine option out of play. What is a Marine doing with a spike? The smudges on the label look a little bit too trite. Nonetheless could this be something from some strange mission other than Palestine? I think the brads are more likely late or even postwar. I just cannot get the picture of the little-known Austrian helmet out of my mind.

ps3120 by joerookery, on Flickr
 
Spiker said:
Movie prop ? I don't think so ,that would be the most detailed movie prop ever...but you never know ...
Click to expand...

I thought perhaps a dressed up movie prop.

Some of the props in the BBC's The Fall of Eagles were really good. The Russian Imperial Guard helmets are in several scenes and those were pretty detailed. I'll see if I can find any images.

The sci-fi show Babylon 5 apparently had used a set of vintage Mexican Guard helmets (below). The prop house supplied them and the story I heard was no one knew the helmets were real and 100+ years old. Apparently they took off the eagle on the top not knowing the value of the helmets!

Helmets1_zpsf67d0b0c.jpg
 
Replies to a couple of questions raised here.....the safest way to put split brad spike base fasteners back on is to heat the prongs red hot with a torch. This "annealing" process resets the molecules in the metal and makes them very pliable. Thus they are soft as new when you put them back on and bend them. However, the torching also blackens the brass so you have to clean them before putting them back on. One T Schnurr assures me that any split brad wappen is a mid war piece, we discussed this issue in July of this year. I do have a JR 119 OR helme in my collection with split brads instead of screw post or loops. I have also worked on Prussian officer helmes with split brad wappen. They are not the normal or usual means of fixation but they are totally legitimate. The officer tschapka pictured in the restoration section also had split brads.
They are tricky to remove..ie bend back to the vertical position but if you know how to approach things it can be done. Unfortunately, we can't put the torch to the soldered prongs on any fitting as of course this would melt the solder.
 
Regarding the interior shots of this helmet....I see proper period square brass nuts and tin washers. The washers all have the proper patina which I have seen in taking apart numerous helmets. The stamp/sticker I have also seen before, generally the size of the helme is hand written on it. Of note also is the thread loop stitched on to attach the neck protector, we see this looping on the chest of officer uniforms for medals and officer uberzugs. I have no explanation for this weird combination of cruciform officer spike base and marine wappen but from what I can see things in the interior look to be original. I would also like to see a picture of the interior of the helme showing the silk liner and sweat band. More information could be gathered if the wappen was taken off....pics of it and the front of the helmet.
 
Yes ,I agree ,setting your helmet on fire will make you split-pins more bendable …. #-o


Just pulling your leg Brian, bad habit of mine… :)
 
No problem Ed...humour is always welcome, I mean, after all, we do have one of Idaho's most renowned humourists resident here on the forum....The Gusmeister!
 
I have bad feeling about this helmet because it contains too many red flags IMHO. In addition, this kind of helmet is not listed on the following site, although it shows one tropical helmet with a cruciform spike base.

http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/tropicalhelmets.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just my thoughts and perhaps I am completely wrong :D

Regards,

Edwin
 
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