Carbines and bayonets

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
I am not a gun guy so I need some pretty low-level explanation on this. Thanks to some pictures from Brett I understand that the Kar 88 had no mounting socket for a bayonet. I also understand that the Kar 98 did. Was this a mid-war change? The reason that I am asking is because of weaponry used by cavalry soldiers. When shot off their horse they would take their lance with them. Ostensibly this was because they did not have bayonets. The action I am researching happened on 12 August 1914. Is there a way I can check what units had what weapon at that time? Thank you Mr. Wizard! #-o
 
fuhrer durch heer und flotte, pages 264 through 271 lists firearms and edged weapons for each branch of the army. Cavalry information begins on page 268.

Reservist1
 
Hey Joe

Don't imagine this will add too much more to your information file, but the Kar 98 was first issued in 1909, ours is chamber dated that year and is serial number 7588a. It has a bayonet lug, but the lug sure seems to have been an afterthought, as it gives little support to the bayonet when attached to the rifle. The bayonet grip sits way forward of the muzzle, looking quite odd in my opinion. I wonder if this carbine with bayonet attached was the main reason flashguards were adopted on later issue 98/05 bayonets? The exposure of the grip of the issue bayonet to muzzle blast must have been terrific.

Also in our debris field is a unit marked 1871 Carbine and a unit marked KAR 88, both are issued to Kurassier Regiments, Nr 7 and Nr 1 respectively. As you note, neither weapon has the capability to fit a bayonet. As a final comment, I have often wondered how a trooper, burdened with the wear of a cumbersome cuirass, was expected to accurately aim and fire his weapon? :-k

Larmo
 
Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch


Thank you R1!
That is exactly the citation and exactly what it should say. No bayonets. Therefore, this seems to support that it was a mid-war add-on. Very interesting.

Larry,
The cuirass was eliminated as part of the equipment in 1889. Those pictures that you see with cuirass were Ausermassig (sic) and maintained by separate nonofficial funding with the exception of the guards. They were used ceremonially but not operationally. They existed during the Franco Prussian war but not World War I in the German cavalry. One of the units under our microscope is KR2.
 
Joe: All Kar 98s (with the exception of the short lived Artillery Kar 98) were manufactured with bayonet lugs.

Reservist1
 
Thank you! More information – but yet they did not carry bayonets? I have got some information from survivors that I need to look at in detail. Why would they have lugs but no bayonet? Was the thought that they had too many edged weapons already?
 
Hey Joe,
I think the reason that the cavalry were not issued bayonets was because they were not trained to use them and the bayonet in a frog on the belt would be a problem for a man in saddle, if they were required to keep thir lance, a bayonet would be just more weight and in the way.
 
I have a book by Goertz & Wacker that includes TO&Es for all branches in 1914. Cavalry regiments were issued KAR98s but no bayonets whereas Fuss Artillerie units were issued KAR 98s with S98/05 bayonets. Telegrapher troops were also issued KAR98s with bayonets.
 
There was an Artillery Version of the Kar.88 that did accept a bayonet. Can't recall if it was a modification (I think so IIRC) of the Standard Kar.88 or a new made firearm. They are quite scarce.

Best Regards!
- Mike
 
Evening Gents
Although it is correct that cavalrymen did not have bayonets as a side arm in 1914, according to Anthony Carter, the S84/98nA was introduced in 1915 to provide a short bayonet for the Cavalry, along with the field artillery and technical troops. So things were evolving as the war progressed. S84/98nA was not originally intended for infantrymen, but by early 1917, it was starting to dawn on the Alte Armee that the longer bladed bayonets including S98/05 were not as appropriate for trench warfare as the S84/98 was.
 
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