Chain mail cover.

poniatowski

Well-known member
Okay, here's a NEW one. Never heard of this, but I would think that rings would be welded or riveted, rather than just butted together... Anybody know of these being used by the Germans? To me, it seems like an outrageous fake, but I don't know.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/orginal-stormtroopers-pickelhaube-helmet-protection-cover-super-super-rare-/161306570069?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258e9eed55" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:D Ron
 
The same on http://www.2ememain.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (kunowice):

http://www.2ememain.be/collections/collections-divers/arm%C3%A9e-guerre-marine/zeer-zeldzaam-stoottroepen-pickelhaube-overtrek-190609457.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
It's a fantasy piece, the seller just wants to make a lot of money with just a little effort :x ... It's indeed not the first time on ebay.
Also for sale here: http://www.2dehands.be/verzamelen/overige-verzamelstukken/leger-oorlog-marine/zeer-zeldzaam-stoottroepen-pickelhaube-overtrek-190609457.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Adler
 
The thing just does ‘not make much sense :-k ,it surely isn’t a good idea wearing sniper protection and a shiny spike on top of your head ,one might argue that it could be for the M15 but by then experiments with the steel helmet were already begun.
Also as a tryout it don’t make sense ,cause once an army tool has been approved it has to go to massproduction ,this thing is not made in a few minutes ,know what I’m saying…
Dose markings are the easiest part of the item; every good old smithy has a number-set lying around.
 
Spiker said:
The thing just does ‘not make much sense :-k ,it surely isn’t a good idea wearing sniper protection and a shiny spike on top of your head ,one might argue that it could be for the M15 but by then experiments with the steel helmet were already begun.
Also as a tryout it don’t make sense ,cause once an army tool has been approved it has to go to massproduction ,this thing is not made in a few minutes ,know what I’m saying…
Dose markings are the easiest part of the item; every good old smithy has a number-set lying around.

Agreed. I 've been thinking about this piece and the solutions Germany usually came up with. The chain mail, which would mar the helmet doesn't make sense. A leather 'cap' with curved plates front and rear would be a better idea by far... I still feel that this is an outrageous fake and don't believe it was experimental either. The Germans took photos of almost everything they made, experimental or not and I think that some evidence either in writing or in photographs would have surfaced a long time ago.

:D Ron
 
Actually, I feel I must diagree with the general consensus here as I have some insight as to this piece. Chainmail devices were not uncommon in WW1, and many experimental methods of dealing with Artillery shrapnel were developed and fielded to select units. My advisor and client was very interested in purchasing this piece, and I thought I would be able to get it for less.

In a time where at least in one instance a formation of standing Soldiers were found dead (Standing so close that they held each other up in formation) from sharpnel, one of the the pushes was for the Germans (and the other nationalities) to find those few who could still do chainmail pieces, in an effort to create something light and protective. So, while some members of this forum would note that this piece is unoriginal, I would argue that it is a rare and interesting piece.

That being said, the original piece sold from Germany for about 800 Euros--and I turned it down at the time. The current seller's listings are typically about 10% fakes, which of course calls into question everything he sells. What's stranger is the incredible jump in price of the piece (Originally sold for 800 Euros, listed for 5k, then 3k), and his use of the original seller's photos. While it might imply a fake auction, what is more realistic is that he is having them reproduced--it's something I looked into, and I determined my chainmail guys (yeah, I said that) could do it for about 800 dollars--all they wanted was a helmet to use to make the first one.

So, don't rule the item out as being genuine.

v/r
Wolf-Ekkehard
 
Redlegwolf said:
Actually, I feel I must diagree with the general consensus here as I have some insight as to this piece. Chainmail devices were not uncommon in WW1, and many experimental methods of dealing with Artillery shrapnel were developed and fielded to select units. My advisor and client was very interested in purchasing this piece, and I thought I would be able to get it for less.

Your alternative explanation certainly sounds attractive to me and indeed the Germans made a lot of experimental helmets / designs. Can you perhaps provide a reference for this chain mail cover?

Regards,

Edwin
 
Are you gentlemen serious about this?
Maybe the seller was inspired by the following picture? Only, this was made out of wool and the purpose was to keep warm...

Adler
 
Priceless Karel! =D> What a cool series of photos though!

Perhaps he did see the last one and thought it was chain mail... it does look like the Hollywood equivalent.

:D Ron
 
While I appreciate the sarcasm, the original listing looked unimpeachably authentic, and its original use makes all the sense in the world--given the many other expedients tried on the Western Front in 1915. No, I can offer no evidence as to this particular piece, but I then ask what evidence Mr. Adler has to refute its authenticity. I find that in the militaria world too many are too fast to call fake, and while pickelhauben are not my particular expertise yet, I have found that even those with thirty and forty years of collecting experience in US Indian Wars items make mistakes. One thing I have learned about collectors is that along with the development of the internet and availability of general information, collectors have never been more ill-informed, and we have created and imposed rules on the past that simply did not exist.

Since, I am unfamiliar with Adler's background, I can only assume he is a WW1 museum curator--is that too far off? And that comment is not meant to be flippant, it's what I surmised from his profile.

Indeed, while chain maille items were sprouting up from other nations during WW1, I would again ask why you think it is a ridiculous notion that this would a proposed solution to enemy Artillery. I din't think the argument that chainmail would scratch the helmet rules out its development.

As an artilleryman, and active Soldier, I find it hard to believe that WW1 Germany would document everything they experimented with when even the modern United States does not do so well. I believe this was an attempt--be it a prototype, experiment, or what have you--at solving what was a real problem.

What I can offer, is that there are examples of chain maille linings sewn into British Jackets, chain mail pieces that attached to various helmets, the tank-splatter masks everyone should be familiar with, and other examples of integrating what was a seemingly dead art into protecting the modern force.

v/r
Wolf-Ekkehard
 
Having made a LOT of butted chain mail (self taught, it's easy), the only reason I could see them scouring Germany for chain mail makers is to rivet the chains, or weld them. These are butted, which isn't all that protective. Other than that, I could see them looking for firms willing to take on a labor intensive operation like linking mail. There are now machines that make 'tubes' of mail, but I don't know when they were invented.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I looked at WWI tank masks (English, etc) and the mail on those was butted. Original? I think so, but am not sure. Maybe an email to David Fletcher is in order on that one. I'll see what info I can get from the Tank Museum. However, to me this still seems like a fake (it's pretty easy to 'hallmark' metal and age it, but I'm all too willing to do an about face once evidence is provided.

Interesting discussion!

:D Ron
 
Omg... here's another German piece of body protection :^o ... http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=739763" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just look at the condition of the metal and the same type of rust and oxidation. My guess is that it's made by the same artist.
But hey, that's only my 2 cents of course. I hope the "believers" can purchase those rare items for a great price...

Adler
 
poniatowski said:
it's pretty easy to 'hallmark' metal and age it:D Ron

It's these "hallmarks" that I find especially ridiculous. The "E.T." is noteworthy as it suggests the maker is none other than the ironworks Eisenhüttenwerke Thale, the premier helmet manufacturer. They have even tried to match the font, so I have little doubt that this letter combination was intentional. Thale was an industry leader and was pioneering techniques for drawing high grade sheet steel into tubes for torpedoes and later would be the sole company chosen to help develop, test and manufacture the very first steel helmets. I can't imagine that any ironworks would have proof marked a simple scrap of steel let alone allow itself to be involved with such a baffling and inept project.

Thale helmet maker mark for comparison.
View attachment 1
 
Redlegwolf said:
While I appreciate the sarcasm, the original listing looked unimpeachably authentic, and its original use makes all the sense in the world--given the many other expedients tried on the Western Front in 1915. No, I can offer no evidence as to this particular piece, but I then ask what evidence Mr. Adler has to refute its authenticity. I find that in the militaria world too many are too fast to call fake, and while pickelhauben are not my particular expertise yet, I have found that even those with thirty and forty years of collecting experience in US Indian Wars items make mistakes. One thing I have learned about collectors is that along with the development of the internet and availability of general information, collectors have never been more ill-informed, and we have created and imposed rules on the past that simply did not exist.

People often say it’s a fake, because 90 % of the stuff for sale IS fake or tampered with or upgraded. And that’s even an optimistic number.
I for one, do find the internet helpful for knowledge, I know that some dealers in fake stuff don’t like forums very much; it’s difficult to fool someone who can ask an opinion from a more experienced collector.

So it’s best to be very careful before you take out the old wallet.
Remember when you have been fooled and you want to get rid of the thing you gonna have to fool someone else.

Here’s an example of how good a fake can be….
LinienadlerOffz.jpg
 
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