Chain mail cover.

[Stahlhelm]

Why are some of the detractors of this chain mail contraption calling it a fake? Fake suggests that it's a copy based on an existing original item. This thing is a poorly thought out fantasy piece.

 

[poniatowski]

Why are some of the detractors of this chain mail contraption calling it a fake? Fake suggests that it's a copy based on an existing original item. This thing is a poorly thought out fantasy piece.

That's a good point, BUT...

fake1 [feyk]
verb (used with object), faked, fak·ing.

1. prepare or make (something specious, deceptive, or fraudulent): to fake a report showing nonexistent profits.

So I think we have a fantasy fake. :wink: (Kidding you of course) Still waiting on the Tank Museum, but I think the difference in velocity and mass of machine gun spall inside of a WWI tank and artillery shrapnel that will pin people together is quite significant and this doily won't do the job. The whole thing still bugs me, why not bring the rings lower as in a medieval coif?

Hey SPIKER,

Do you have that plate in your collection? It looks pretty darned nice to me. Where does it come from?

Ron

 

[pointystuff]

What does the back of that fake eagle look like?

While I appreciate the sarcasm, the original listing looked unimpeachably authentic, and its original use makes all the sense in the world--given the many other expedients tried on the Western Front in 1915. No, I can offer no evidence as to this particular piece, but I then ask what evidence Mr. Adler has to refute its authenticity. I find that in the militaria world too many are too fast to call fake, and while pickelhauben are not my particular expertise yet, I have found that even those with thirty and forty years of collecting experience in US Indian Wars items make mistakes. One thing I have learned about collectors is that along with the development of the internet and availability of general information, collectors have never been more ill-informed, and we have created and imposed rules on the past that simply did not exist.

People often say it’s a fake, because 90 % of the stuff for sale IS fake or tampered with or upgraded. And that’s even an optimistic number.
I for one, do find the internet helpful for knowledge, I know that some dealers in fake stuff don’t like forums very much; it’s difficult to fool someone who can ask an opinion from a more experienced collector.

So it’s best to be very careful before you take out the old wallet.
Remember when you have been fooled and you want to get rid of the thing you gonna have to fool someone else.

Here’s an example of how good a fake can be….

 

[Redlegwolf]

I think most antiques are likely messed with--whether restored, cleaned, or built upon. Separation of time and rarity allows leeway in keeping pieces alive-- for instance, you will be hard pressed to find any art with original canvas stretchers over 250 years old--yet you have people convinced they have original canvas stretchers. Art itself can be almost entirely repainted. And fabric in armor is often completely replaced. I can even think of one plane noted to be original that when you look at it, the only original piece is where the pilot actually sat. Unless you like your pieces covered in rust, falling apart, or with dry rot--maybe it's irresponsible not to work on pieces.

Now, when you talk about regilding--I'm personally okay with that--but some guys aren't.

The upgrading--that's a whole other matter. If it's for yourself--whatever. But to pass off something as another thing for money;well, that's obviously dishonest.

I'm not convinced that the item isn't real, but you've brought up enough points that I wouldn't feel comfortable advising a client to purchase it.

I suppose Imperial German items are a much bigger target for counterfeit than other militaria--I guess I'm just fortunate that no one really wants to fake Indian Wars items yet. You know, a tale of Hitler's crystal being faked comes to mind...and that guy made a lot of money...

v/r
Wolf-Ekkehard

 

[Spiker]

Hey SPIKER,

Do you have that plate in your collection? It looks pretty darned nice to me. Where does it come from?

Ron

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.kammerbulle.de/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[poniatowski]

Hey SPIKER,

Do you have that plate in your collection? It looks pretty darned nice to me. Where does it come from?

Ron

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.kammerbulle.de/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks Ed!
I've seen that, but lost the link. Yes, I wonder what the back looks like and I'd like to see their actual product (we sometimes go to Halle in Germany, not too far from Weimar, maybe a side-trip to the "Pickelhaube Factory"? Probably not. I sometimes wonder if some of these firms photograph excellent examples of actual helmets, then use them in their on-line catalogs. Like I said, I'd like to see what they actually make.

Ron

 

[Redlegwolf]

I think my first question is regards to the front plate is asking why anyone would want to fake something so common? And...it looks like an amazing fire gilding job...

On the Napoleonic battlefield, clothing, headgear, and accouterments were designed and worn with one threat (lots of other considerations, but one threat) in mind: the downward arcing saber cut. On the WWI battlefield, the primary threat was low velocity shell fragments. By 1915 this fact was well-documented, in reports penned by both medical and ordnance officers; statistical studies, charts, and graphs followed. And then all the combatants adopted protective helmets.

Steel helmets of the era were inadequate protection against anything high-velocity, but quite sufficient for most of the stuff flying around the trenches. Look at the Brit helmet--designed with air bursts specifically in mind. Butt-construction chain maille, if made of the right steel, is certainly an adequate defense against slow-moving frags (even some medieval chain maille was crafted in this fashion). I appreciate everyone's opinions, and I'm not rushing out to buy the piece, but I still won't rule out that this artifact was an experimental expedient for the poor schmucks just sitting in the trenches

 

[Spiker]

So ….even if the seller says it’s a repro ,you guys say “nooooo ….must be real” ](*,)

I give up …..

 

[Redlegwolf]

No...you can't argue with an honest seller. I just don't see why someone would fake such a common piece.

 

[Spiker]

No...you can't argue with an honest seller. I just don't see why someone would fake such a common piece.

Perhaps because it has many purposes ?

less common

 

[Redlegwolf]

So...there are a lot of what my friends call 'fake' websites...if one were to even attempt to purchase something from this site, how would you do so? Do you think they are galvano?

 

[pointystuff]

The Kammerbulle plates are galvano/copper electroforms.
They mimic the old-style gilding very well. Unfortunately, even the replicas of more common helmet plates tend to cost as much or more than an original. The wait time is generally long, too. Growing a copper helmet plate in a tank can be very tedious.

 

[Spiker]

So...there are a lot of what my friends call 'fake' websites...if one were to even attempt to purchase something from this site, how would you do so? Do you think they are galvano?

What do you mean “ how would you do so “ I don’t understand…by sending a mail ,I guess.
But would I buy a repro ?
That's a NONO…. I could never be satisfied knowing one of my helmets had a repro part, that would be so unethical. :angel3:

This site is perfect for Reënactment, just wanted to show how good fakes are nowadays.