Chinscale Question Revised.

[poniatowski]

Asked the question about chin scales a bit soon. Did a little searching, found most of it on my own. My only remaining question. Could an NCO or even a soldier below that grade from a unit that designates a leather chinstrap, purchase a nice helmet with scales for in garrison or parade? I know most couldn't afford one, but perhaps a One Year Volunteer?

 

[Sandmann]

Chinstrap and chinscale is a somewhat slightly more complex topic.
As you correctly noted, there were units that put on the chinscales for parades and in the garrison. I was able to verify this rule for the troops from Bavaria and Hesse. In Prussia, the chinstrap, if it was introduced, was no longer removed. There are several photos of soldiers wearing chinstraps on parades. Unfortunately, I was unable to find out the rules for Saxony and Wurttemberg so quickly.
Acc. to cab.-order of march 3, 1887, the chinstrap was introduced only for the infantry. However, the Guards Infantry and Grenadier Regiments No. 1-12 were excluded from this in times of peace.

Modifications of the Pickelhaube between 1887-1890

historien-kabinett.de

I think the chinstrap was introduced for all foot troops with cab.-order of May 18, 1894. Mounted units then only adopted the M91 fastening system for their chinscales.

Modifications of the Pickelhaube between 1891-1894

historien-kabinett.de

In 1915, the general introduction of the chinstrap followed for all units, with the exception of metal helmets, the 1st GRzF and officers in general. These 3 groups kept the chinscales on the helmet without cover and only wore the chinstrap on the helmet with cover.

Modifications of the Pickelhaube between 1914-1918

historien-kabinett.de

On the subject of NCOs with portepee, you can see on the attached photo, an excerpt from a video about the entry of the NCO school in Wetzlar from 1914, that a NCO with portepee clearly wears a chinstrap. I don't believe that the proud officers would have allowed an enlisted man to wear a chinscale on his helmet if he wasn’t authorized. The chinscales would be very conspicuous next to the chinstraps and in Prussia there was a rule of uniformity. This meant that an uniform modification was either introduced for a group, e.g. a battalion, so that the soldiers all looked the same, or it wasn't introduced at first.

 

[poniatowski]

Thank you! That's very useful!

Ron

 

[CLOVIS 57]

In theory, M91 chinstraps with scales were reserved for parade use. In garrison, for service or in the field, only leather chinstraps were used.
But with mobilisation and the shortage, anything was possible.

 

[Sandmann]

Thierry, I also thought that the rule to put on the chinscales again for parades or on garrison duty was valid for Prussian, but I was taught better. There are many photos of Parades with chinstraps, like the following one. I then started looking for legal texts and so far I could only find the wording for Bavaria and Hesse. Anyway, I would be very grateful for sources if I am wrong again

https://flic.kr/p/2ivb4Q3

 

[Sandmann]

When I looked at the picture again closely, I noticed that the portepee belonged to the officer in line. But in the following screenshots of the same video it is definitely a NCO with a portepee, who was part of the staff of the NCO school, and is wearing a chinstrap.

 

[2nd.Leibhusar]

In theory, M91 chinstraps with scales were reserved for parade use. In garrison, for service or in the field, only leather chinstraps were used.
But with mobilisation and the shortage, anything was possible.

View attachment 42155

Clovis is right.
Here's a image of a NCO wearing his steel helmet with chinscales.....

 

[argonne]

Hi,

The main and acknowledged rule, is that all "normal" EM, as the OYV too (!) had to wear during daily garrison duty and manoeuvres a helmet whose external optic had to be exactly like EM Kammer helmets (short spike, EM Wappen without voided crown, chinstrap, EM cockades). No matter about the liner that was allowed to be more confortable, like the inside of private purchased helmets (Eigentum). Such helmets are particularly often seen in the pre-war bavarian army.

Each normal soldier or most of the time rather OYV who were more financially endowed could buy a fancy Eigentum helmet with long spike, voided Wappen and chinscales with rosettes, like officers, but still with EM cockades! This was totally forbidden to wear such a helmet in the garrison! Only outside of the garrisons walls, in the town or during family events.

EM or OYV in such units where the chinscales had to be worn during parades or guards did not wear the chinscales with rosettes but only such with holes to adapt on the M91 side posts, because garrison EM and OYV helmets always had M91 side posts(after 1891,of course).

Philippe

 

[Sandmann]

Btw, if anyone is interested in the video. It has a high resolution and an amazing quality for 1914

Einzug der Unteroffizierschule in Wetzlar 1914 [Archivtitel]

Ankunft der Unteroffizierschüler in Wetzlar. Die Soldaten werden auf dem Bahnhof von Wetzlar u. a. von dem Gendarmen Otto Wallenreich erwartet. Nach der Ankunft des Zuges begrüßen die Honoratioren, darunter der Verwaltungsoffizier des Bezirkskommandos Wetzlar, die Unteroffiziersschüler. Die...

www.europeana.eu

There are many other interesting videos on this website too

 

[John Josef]

Btw, if anyone is interested in the video. It has a high resolution and an amazing quality for 1914

Einzug der Unteroffizierschule in Wetzlar 1914 [Archivtitel]

Ankunft der Unteroffizierschüler in Wetzlar. Die Soldaten werden auf dem Bahnhof von Wetzlar u. a. von dem Gendarmen Otto Wallenreich erwartet. Nach der Ankunft des Zuges begrüßen die Honoratioren, darunter der Verwaltungsoffizier des Bezirkskommandos Wetzlar, die Unteroffiziersschüler. Die...

www.europeana.eu

There are many other interesting videos on this website too

Thanks Sandy, Absolutely brilliant

 

[Lars13]

is that all "normal" EM, as the OYV too (!) had to wear during daily garrison duty and manoeuvres a helmet whose external optic had to be exactly like EM Kammer helmets

As far as I know, the OYV bought / rented (older) equipment and uniform from the regiment for daily use, and private purchase items were only allowed to be worn outside of "working hours" outside the barracks. This also makes sense, as the wear and tear on uniform and equipment is considerable during the daily exercises and chores. This explains the Kammer helmets with a "II" or "III" grading and a OYV name sticker.
Regards,
Lars

 

[argonne]

As far as I know, the OYV bought / rented (older) equipment and uniform from the regiment for daily use, This explains the Kammer helmets with a "II" or "III" grading and a OYV name sticker.

Hi Lars,
You can also often encounter some very new ans still well shaped EM helmets with OYV name tags. As we know, the extremly hierarchical structure of german society in imperial times found its perfect reflection in the army and its severe organisation.

As already perfectly described by Colonel Joe Robinson in one of his great articles on his old website, the OYV who were of a much higher social class than the simple recruits of the people, were strictly segregated from their working-class comrades during their one year duty.

Based on a number of observations, I hypothesize that a certain stock of brand new helmets, only BA or unit stamped (no bataillon or company stamps) was specially reserved for rental or sale for those OYV. It's easy to imagine that these people from a much more affluent background had little desire to be "equipped" with helmets from the cycle of equipment designed for the masses. The company Kammer were obviously responsible for their storage and the number statistically required on average for each year, the companies knowing perfectly well how many OYV are hired each year.

It would also appear that this limited stock of "better" helmets has often escaped periodic equipment inspection cycles reserved for the Kammer helmets worn by ordinary recruits. Quite logical, since they were worn less frequently, one year instead of two or even three years.

Philippe

 

[Lars13]

were strictly segregated from their working-class comrades during their one year duty.

Hi Philippe,
Hopefully not too off-topic
After an initial training to get the OYV "trained up", they became part of a company with the other (non-OYV) enlisted men, and spent quite some time there before moving up to being an NCO, etc. I have an album from a OYV in JB 7, where he can be seen with non-OYV over an extended period of time. This practice is also described in "Der Infanterie-Einjährige und Offizier des Beurlaubtenstandes", Major Max Menzel, 1905.
Regards,
Lars

 

[argonne]

Hi Lars,

There are seldom some off-topics in our collection field Because everything is interwoven, we move to one particularity to the next in a perpetual state of flux. That´s what makes our collection and our debats so exciting There´s always something to learn or to discuss. Never boring

One Year Volunteer (OYV) | Colonel J's

pickelhauben.net

Philippe

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Infra, a See-Bataillon, with a curved scale chinstrap.


Below, 3 soldiers of the 1st Eisenbahn: 3 different chinstraps:
---Top M87 with post-side hook.
---Left M91 leather, with post-side.
---Right M91 with scales, with post-side.



Yet another demonstration of the difference between regulatory theory and practice.