Chinstrap - repro or not?

timp_be

timp_be

Member
What do you think about the following chinstrap?

http://cgi.ebay.com/GERMAN-WW1-M1916-HELMET-CHIN-STRAP_W0QQitemZ6612902149QQcategoryZ13965QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I've already see many of them made by "Otto Koch Co - Berlin 1917". A chinstrap from 1917 with brass fitings... for me it's a copy. What do you think about it?
 
These have been brought up before on this forum and we have a mixed bag of opinions!

I have a couple and I think they are real, late war production straps

If they are fake, they are much better quality and show age much better then the other copies I have seen

James
 
We did have a memeber who researched Otto Kotch and found that there had been a firm by this name which sold camping and hiking gear prior to WW1. I have encountered 3 of these straps 2 grey metal and one brass. I was asked to take one of these apart and change the fittings by a customer. The piece seemed original to me. The ends of the strap were "scived" or beveled so that they would fit together tightly when stitched. In my experience none of the repros have this. The issue really comes down to what you can live with as a collector. Brian
 
Dont these things usually go for close to what a true original would reach anyway and is'nt the leather much thicker than an original too? I dont like the squared buckles on these either so I'd wait or go strapless this summer.
 
Spikeymickey- I have to disagree and again this is only my opinion.

I looked at these comapred to known originals in my collection and I see no differance in the width of the leather. I have seen many fakes, and like you said they are much thicker leather, I just do not see that in the ones I have. IMO I still think these where late war production for a Stahelm etc. and will work for a period pickelhaube.

If they are copies, they are the best I have ever seen....

Again, goes back to what Brian said, if you buy one and are happy with it, then that is what counts.

James
 
Fair enough James, but apart from those buckles which I really dislike, there's something about the typeface used for this lettering that does'nt look to be of the correct period to me. It looks from a later era, but thats just a gut feeling I have. I havent yet encountered any other maker stamped originals so.....I dont know - I aint been collecting these for as long as some of you guys!

I bet this will pull in nigh on $150 though and I dont know if I'd be happy with one of these for that kind of money. 8-[
 
In addition to the questions already raised about the buckles and markings, three other "red flags" jumped out at me when I first saw straps like this about 5 years ago. 1. both sides of the leather is dyed. I have never seen an original chinstrap dyed on both sides of the leather. 2. the leather just does not have the appearance or feel of being 89 years old, it is too supple. 3. The ones I handled had a distinct odor typical of alcohol based leather dye.

The straps are indeed very well made, perhaps a little too well made.

Reservist1
 
Well guy's I have 3, and none of them are dyed on the under side or backside??

James

otto1.jpg


otto2.jpg


ott3.jpg
 
spikeymikey said:
Fair enough James, but apart from those buckles which I really dislike, there's something about the typeface used for this lettering that does'nt look to be of the correct period to me. It looks from a later era, but thats just a gut feeling I have. I havent yet encountered any other maker stamped originals so.....I dont know - I aint been collecting these for as long as some of you guys!

I bet this will pull in nigh on $150 though and I dont know if I'd be happy with one of these for that kind of money. 8-[
Click to expand...
Hey Mike and All,
I must disagree about the type face, it is not inconsistant with markings I have seen on other period equipment. as far as fetching $150, that is a hard one to swallow, but part of the reason I spent $550 on a M1915 at SOS with original chin strap and Kockarden.
Gus
 
I don't like these at all..

A certain well known dealer has these for sale all the time.

http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/0456.htm

I ordered one a year or so ago, although not mentioned.. these are all the same maker as on this thread... I returned it the same day. He's selling them for $95 each... how many do you need :)

Nothing against Ken, he must think they are real... maybe they are?? But I would not touch one with a 10 foot pole.

I have seen at least 15 examples turn up on e-bay over the last year... just a little too spooky for me.. Just my opinion though
 
The example you show James is exactly like the ones I saw ( I still have one). I can only concur...if they are fakes then they are the best fakes around. If Der R has them for sale all the time then I am worried. I am going to post some pics tomorrow if I have time showing some examples of different straps that I have. For instance, the width of the strap can vary as well as the thickness of leather on originals. Brian
 
James, the chinstrap you show is with iron fittings what looks normal and it's more than probable that Otto Koch Co produce chinstraps during the war. But why are they all dated from 1917? Did someone find a chinstrap produce by Otto Koch Co in 1916 or 1918? Another problem for me is to find 1917 products with brass fittings... who stop to be used after 1915. It's not impossible but strange. Maybe somebody find a lot of stamped straps and put brass fittings on them because he didn't know they must be in iron? Or maybe someone find the makers'stamp or made a new one... Many holsters, pouch... are stamped even if they are copys... Those chinstraps looks good but I find there are too much examples on the marked made by Otto Koch in comparison with the number of authentic chinstraps you can find...
 
Okay Gus, I stand corrected on the typo! And James late war theory is interesting. I have to say that I've not seen a worn or dried out /cracked 'Koch' strap. Nothing like the original M15's that I have anyway.
This guy seems to have several of the same for sale too - check ebay 6596485250.
It's the same strap. Maybe it got returned? Maybe he does'nt change the picture because they are all virtual clones?
Answers! - we need answers for pity's sake!! :sad5:
 
Hi All,As I niderstand, there was a collecter's market for spiked helmets after WWI in Europe, most Pickelhauben in
Germany did not have chin straps due to them being removed for the Stahlhelm. It is possible that the Kach firm saw a market and made up a bunch of straps using the correct construction methods, but making steel and brass hardwear, the dies should have been available from at least one metal shop. This is the kind of explanation that Tony hates (although this is a negative rather than a positive spin on things). The Germans are well known after WWII for doing the very same with more complex items and passing them off as real. There really is no reason that a carrect chin strap can not be made, even today, and nearly all reproduction stuff is marked and dated. I would not venture to pay much for any chin strap that does not come with a helmet.
Gus
 
Right Gus, thats a rational explaination and one that Tony will indeed hate, so expect a bollocking from him shortly. But why those 'sharp cornered' buckles'? Out of all the dies that they could have got hold of they ended up with these dockin' great squared off job's. If you skip through Larcade Vol.I I dont think you will see any quite the same as these. I looked at a copy a friend of mine in the south of England made last year. He used to be a saddle maker and his repro's are very good - they have the 'scived' ends too.
 
Hi Timp:
I worked on a Prussian Artillery OR's helmet 2 months ago which came with an Otto chin strap with brass fittings. This is the only brass Otto strap that I have seen. The buckles etc were similar to the M15 style ones. Brian
 
For what is worth Otto Koch & Co. did make cloth covers for steel helmets. Their marking in cloth covers, as shown in Kraus, page 111, was Otto Koch & CO. Berlin S.O. 26

Reservist1
 
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