Cuirasses-a little off the mark

USMC-EOD

USMC-EOD

Active member
Gents,

I've had a couple of folks tell me over the years that the Germans utilized captured french cuirassier armor from the Franco-Prussian war. I have also seen a photo here and there over the years that show German cuirassiers wearing armor that appears to have French style chains rather than scales. Have any of you ever encountered anything like this?

S/F

Bryan.
 
I am at work Bryan, but from memory (always dangerous) the Kuraß worn by Regt. der Gardes du Corps and Garde-Kürassier-Regt only used chains in the French style. All the other regiments, 1 to 8, wore scales with clips on the ends.
 
Hi Bryan

I pulled my copy of The German Cavalry from 1871-1914 by Herr & Nguyen off the shelf. This is another excellent publication by Verlag Militaria, who also published the French series.

On page 222 (which is the beginning of the cuirassier section) it states, " In 1814 the Prussian regiments stationed in France (after Waterloo) began wearing cuirasses captured from the French. It also states that prior to this time the heavy cavalry had stopped the practice of wearing the cuirass by around the end of the eighteenth century. The Cuirassier regiments continued to wear the cuirass in the field until 1880 when an A.K.O. order relagated them to dress and ceremonial use.

Seems to make good military economic sense, they are an expensive piece of equipment, you really can't wear them out and they were captured from a worthy opponent. Certainly the leather components were modified over the yeas due to wear and breakage.

Larmo

PS, A Happy Thanksgiving Bryan to you and your Marines today, God Bless our Troops!!

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Thank you Gentlemen.

I know that I need to do my research. I appreciate the assistance in the direction that I need to go. There will be several books on my Christmas list.

Thank you for the kind sentiments for my Marines Larry. I normally take the EOD response duty for my guys on the long holiday weekends. The curse of being old, sedentary, and in charge. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you as well.

Semper Fi,

Bryan.
 
Cuirassiers were the traditional heavy cavalry still wearing their breast armor until 1888 when the breast armor was taken away except for parade purpose of the Guards’ cavalry regiments.
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Handbook of Imperial Germany page 338. The breastplates did not go away entirely however after 1888 they became "außeretatmäßige Stücke".
 
Hey Gents,

These are the three cuirasses that I have kicking around the house. All three are French. Not the best condition out there. I grabbed them because they were comparatively cheap and matching numbered sets which are hard to find sometimes.

First image shows an earlier, pot belly style (Model 1825, I think) and the one on the right is a later style with a slimmer waist (Model 1855, I think). Both are cuirassier armor. The older one is going to be getting fixed up over the next few months. It's pretty beat and I figure it couldn't hurt.

The lower image is a cuirass for a Carabineer (I'm probably butchering that spelling). It's pre-Franco-Prussian War period. It should have a large sunburst in white metal with a brass French Imperial Eagle in the center. As you can see in the photo, it has had the holes for this device patched over professionally a long time ago. The upper hole has a diamond shaped brass patch and the lower hole is filled in with silver solder. I think the patch may have come off of the lower hole.

I was going to look for the proper chest device for this brass overlay cuirass and try to restore this thing back to original, but I heard from a couple of collectors that the Germans utilized a lot of the cuirasses that they captured after the Franco-Prussian War. I was told that the second and sixth Kurassier Regiments utilized this type of brass overlay style armor that were captured and that I should leave it alone until I learned more about it. Any comments from those of you more knowledgeable than I am would be greatly appreciated. I'm almost certain I've seen old pictures of German enlisted cuirassiers wearing these types of chains on what appeared to be French-looking armor.

Tony-I think I may have confused you with my comments about French style chains. What I meant were the types that you see in these pictures with the double row of brass rings which are a lot different from the German scales like the ones on your GdC cuirass. I've seen similar German-style scales on really older French cuirasses that pre-date the Crimean War, but as I've said, my knowledge base is very limited in this field and I have a lot of research to do.

I'm looking forward to any and all comments on captured armor and it's use/modification by the Germans. Perhaps wishful thinking on my part with my Carabineer cuirass, but fun to speculate.

S/F

Bryan.

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USMC-EOD said:
Tony-I think I may have confused you with my comments about French style chains. What I meant were the types that you see in these pictures with the double row of brass rings which are a lot different from the German scales like the ones on your GdC cuirass.
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Not confused at this end. Those double row of brass rings (like on your French cuirass) were worn by the Regt. der Gardes du Corps and Garde-Kürassier-Regt on their Tombak Kuraß. They did not use scales. All the other regiments, 1 to 8, wore scales (like giant chinscales from a Pickelhaube). You should try to snag a French metal helmet to match your best cuirass. That would look quite cool in your office.
 
Thank you Tony.

Very cool. I was completely unaware of this! That explains the pictures I've seen in the past. You learn something new every day I guess.

I've actually been hanging back from asking questions on this cuirass subject due to my own lack of knowledge. I wanted to try to find out as much as I could on the subject, but the books/language barrier has made it difficult as I was speaking about on another thread. I probably need to eventually learn to speak German and French! Thanks to all of you for pointing me in some excellent directions for literature written in English. As I said, I have some books to purchase for Christmas as well as the Colonel's newly published reference.

S/F

Bryan.
 
Hi Bryan

Out of curiosity, are there any readable dates inside your cuirass sets? They are great looking things indeed.

Larry
 
Tony & Kaiser said:
I am at work Bryan, but from memory (always dangerous) the Kuraß worn by Regt. der Gardes du Corps and Garde-Kürassier-Regt only used chains in the French style. All the other regiments, 1 to 8, wore scales with clips on the ends.
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Like I said, dangerous working from memory. From what can gather here flipping through books is that the Regt. der Gardes du Corps and Garde-Kürassier-Regt twin used chains in the French style until 1897. This is the year the GdC was given the new black parade Kuraß. So it seems that after 1897 they wore the large brass scales like the other Regiments.
 
Thanks Larry,

I appreciate your kindness, but they really are kind of beat up and rusty. I think you would agree if you ever saw them up close and personal.

The oldest, pot belly (Model 1825) is maker marked to Klingenthal and dated 1830.

The one from the picture sitting to the right is made by Chatellerault and is dated 1876. That makes sense, as I have heard that the French wanted to move the bulk of their armaments production away from the border regions to facilitate strategic manufacture. I believe that I read somewhere that the Germans overran their Klingenthal State Arms facility rather quickly during the Franco-Prussian War, but that most production had been moved to Chatellerault in anticipation before then. I could be wrong on that.

The third cuirass with the brass facings is undated but is maker-marked on the outer edges of the sides to "Delechaisser". I'm pretty confident that it is a pre-Franco-Prussian War piece though. The only French cavalry formations that I am aware of that wore this type of brass overlay armor were the Carabineer units, and a friend of mine researched that they had been just about completely disbanded by the time the Franco-Prussian War kicked off. From what he told me, there was only one "Guard" regiment of these guys left when the war kicked off. Both the carabineers and the cuirassiers were pretty badly mauled during the war, and the carabineers were pretty much a thing of the past after it ended. I used to wonder why I had never seen an example of a Model 1872/74 style carabineer helmet with the lower crown and longer neck guard like I saw with other formations helmets. His explanation made sense. The funny thing is that the later gendarme helmets have the carabineer "look" to them. There is probably a good reason for this, but a lot of research awaits me for the future in order to find out.

If you have any cool looking cuirasses laying about the house Larry, I would love to see you post them. German or French, I like learning about them all and the periods they were used in.

S/F

Bryan.
 
Hey Tony,

Interesting. Like I said, I thought I had seen double ring style shoulder straps in old photos on some type of German cuirassier armor. It had to have been on pre-1897 cuirasses of the Garde Du Corps. Do you have the titles of any good books so I can find out more?

S/F

Bryan.
 
Hi Bryan

Beat up! You should see mine, non-matching set and I can't read the dates there either, I still like it though and as Tony said they look great in the office-man cave.

I think you know a lot more than you let on regarding this stuff, and its pretty plain you do your homework. During WWII the Germans utilized the Chatelleraut arsenal too, K98 bayonets with a jwh code for one.

Your sets look great..

Larry
 
Hey Larry.

Trust me, you are too kind. I know enough to get myself in trouble from time to time, especially with the older stuff.

Probably a good attitude to have in my line of work. I've been able to figure out more than one "set-up" being pulled on me and my Marines in Iraq over the last several years. I just make a lot of observations that normally lead to even more questions.

About the time that I start thinking I know it all about a specific piece of militaria or a weapon, I soon find out how little I really know. One thing I really hate is when I buy a book only to find out five or six years later that there is a "revised" edition because the author got a lot of it wrong. That has happened a lot with certain U.S. weapons systems that I used to collect several years ago. Fortunately, most of the rules are set in place with the older gear; I just have a hard time with the language barrier or finding the really good references when they are out of print. A fairly common problem in this field among collectors, I am sure.

When and where will the next California show be at where you will be set up?

S/F

Bryan.
 
Bruno!

Very cool! That appears to be (correct me if I am wrong) the model 1825 cuirass. Same unit, but mine needs to be cleaned up pretty badly. The one I have is the Model 1855, with the slimmer waist. Not quite as pot bellied as the picture of yours, but a better piece when you think about it. Yours possibly saw service during the Crimean War and would have still been in full use during the Franco-Prussian War as well. Photographs show that these earlier cuirasses were being worn with the newer models throughout the life of the individual cavalry formations. What is the date and manufacturer on your cuirass? Do you have a carabineer helmet to go with it?

S/F

Bryan.
 
Marine. Buy these. They are expensive, but trust me. Have a look at them at a show and you will buy them.

Herr, U, Nguyen, U. (2006) The German Cavalry from 1871 to 1914 Verlag Militaria, Vienna


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Herr, U, Nguyen, U. (2008) The German Infantry 1871-1914 Two Volumes. Verlag Militaria, Vienna

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Kraus, J. (2004) The German Army in the First World War Verlag Militaria, Vienna

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Thank you Tony.

I will ensure that these books make up my next purchase. You've been very helpful and a good friend.

Semper Fi,

Bryan.
 
H Bryan

Next weekend is the big 3 day show at the state fairgrounds in Phoenix, Crossroads GS combined with the Small Arms Reveiw Show in the Exhibit building. 1500 tables, lots of boomsticks, especially in the SAR building, lots of class three material including cannon. Terri and I will be set up in that building. I believe it opens to the public at noon on Friday. Its hands down the best show in the state all year.

Larry
 
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