Domed chin scales and flat chin scales

[5thlancers]

Hi Folks,
Can some kind sole tell me why some officers chin scales have flat chin scales and others have domed, the reason I ask is because I have seen two Bavaria Reserve Line Infantry Officers Pickelhaube's one with flat chin scales and the other with domed.
Cheers.
Kev.

 

[WWI Collector]

Hello Kev,

Read the 1914 directive on Bavarian officer's helmet on this link.

What happened in 1914 to officer pickelhaubes confuses a lot of collectors (and almost every dealer!) but here he has explained it perfectly.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/bayern.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[poniatowski]

Welcome to the forum Kev, if I haven't said so already.

I had 'rounded' vs. 'flat' chinscales explained to me as rounded signifying mounted troops (think of the rounded hoof of a horse), while flat was for non-mounted formations (flat feet??? :wink: )

If I'm wrong in this, I'm sure somebody will correct me, which would be helpful for both of us!

Ron

 

[5thlancers]

I think I really need to get some research books.
Can I just do a tester please, am I right in thinking that the image shown here is of a M1886 with large front plate with intertwined vine leaves in the legs and open crown.
What is the significance of the open crown and the closed crown.
Cheers Kev.

 

[Spiker]

Welcome to the forum Kev, if I haven't said so already.

I had 'rounded' vs. 'flat' chinscales explained to me as rounded signifying mounted troops (think of the rounded hoof of a horse), while flat was for non-mounted formations (flat feet??? :wink: )

If I'm wrong in this, I'm sure somebody will correct me, which would be helpful for both of us!

Ron

The way my Jedi master explained chinscales to me was that the scales were flattened to be able to aim better when holding the rifle next to the cheek, round chin scales are too fat and in the way.
Mounted troops held on to their swords and lances longer and kept the round chinscales.

 

[poniatowski]

Welcome to the forum Kev, if I haven't said so already.

I had 'rounded' vs. 'flat' chinscales explained to me as rounded signifying mounted troops (think of the rounded hoof of a horse), while flat was for non-mounted formations (flat feet??? :wink: )

If I'm wrong in this, I'm sure somebody will correct me, which would be helpful for both of us!

Ron

The way my Jedi master explained chinscales to me was that the scales were flattened to be able to aim better when holding the rifle next to the cheek, round chin scales are too fat and in the way.
Mounted troops held on to their swords and lances longer and kept the round chinscales.

I would imagine this was when the scales were around the chin, rather than on the helmet, otherwise it wouldn't matter. Interesting indeed, but having qualified in the military with the M1 helmet (no chin strap worn), Kevlar (thin chin strap) and ACH ("Y" or "airborne" strap), I didn't see much difference between chin straps being on or off and can't really imagine that extra 1/8 inch or less influencing anybody's aim, especially if they'd zeroed with the weapon, while wearing the helmet with the scales worn.. However, I'm willing to accept that as a theory, it's certainly as good as the one I heard! So if that is the case, in some states (Bavaria perhaps), rounded chin scales might be retained for anybody not doing actual front line fighting? I'm thinking foot artillery (small caliber guns, not trench mortars), etc?
Personally, I thought it was a status thing, with the mounted or 'elite' units wearing the more distinctive rounded scales. Nobody who is 'mounted' can be convinced that even the best Jaeger is more elite... after all, the more toys (horse, etc) the better!

Ron

 

[WWI Collector]

I think I really need to get some research books. Can I just do a tester please, am I right in thinking that the image shown here is of a M1886 with large front plate with intertwined vine leaves in the legs and open crown. What is the significance of the open crown and the closed crown.

Kev if you read the information on Tony's site, http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/bayern.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you can see that you are correct, you have a M1886 officer. It has the M1886 helmet plate and flat chinscales which were changed in 1914 for all officers to rounded scales and the smaller helmet plate without the vines and leafs.

For Bavarian helmets the top crown is almost always open. He shows a early big M1886 helmet plate with a closed top crown which is very unusual. Which is probably why it is in his collection :wink:

The crowns on the lions can be solid or open and the rank does not matter. It is very normal to see an officer helmet with the crowns on the lions solid.

 

[5thlancers]

I think I really need to get some research books. Can I just do a tester please, am I right in thinking that the image shown here is of a M1886 with large front plate with intertwined vine leaves in the legs and open crown. What is the significance of the open crown and the closed crown.

Kev if you read the information on Tony's site, http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/bayern.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you can see that you are correct, you have a M1886 officer. It has the M1886 helmet plate and flat chinscales which were changed in 1914 for all officers to rounded scales and the smaller helmet plate without the vines and leafs.

For Bavarian helmets the top crown is almost always open. He shows a early big M1886 helmet plate with a closed top crown which is very unusual. Which is probably why it is in his collection :wink:

The crowns on the lions can be solid or open and the rank does not matter. It is very normal to see an officer helmet with the crowns on the lions solid.

Ah! now that makes sense, only this helmet is advertised as a M1897
Thanks for that.
Cheers.
Kev

 

[WWI Collector]

Ah! now that makes sense, only this helmet is advertised as a M1897

The seller is probably saying 1897 as that is when the Reichs cockade was added to all helmets. But that was a directive, not a Model.

Again I refer you to my favourite website http://www.kaisersbunker.com/hp/kokarden.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The model is an M1886.

 

[5thlancers]

Thanks guys for all your help, I think I'm going to find a quiet little corner somewhere and do a bit of reading.
I'll be back :greentank:

 

[b.loree]

In my experience, "in general" any group involved with horse transportation used convex (rounded) chin scales. So.....Husars, Ulan, Feld Arty, Train, Kurassier, JzP, Dragoons, However, there are exceptions......Inspectors (of all kinds), Zahl meisters, Generals also wore the convex scales. I would also point out that Bavaria was the last hold out to bow to Prussian dominance and wherever they could, they exerted their independence through hauben, uniform characteristics and equipment. They were number 2 in the Imperial army as far as boots on the ground and the Prussians had to give them some independence.