Dragoner Restoration

b.loree

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
Some before pics of this Dragoner restoration.
2a3b1f1f-47b4-40e9-869f-71909e468f2e.jpg


288a2dfb-342e-4e27-a916-a641ed6b241f.jpg


IMG_1435.jpg


IMG_1439.jpg


Problems: Obviously a sunken top which is typical of the cruciform base helmets and missing finish. The piece is very dry which accounts for the finish issue. It literally flakes away as you handle the helmet which can not be avoided. However, the flakes are always saved. We will talk about that later. Spike base has been warped as the leather shrunk down. The officer kokarden are gone and the sweat band needs some moisturizing. The silk bag needs a restitch as well. Someone else has attempted a crude restitch. More pictures of the interior to follow. To be continued.... I know what this is but lets have you guys ID this rare beast. Perhaps one of our members has a similar helme so that we can compare. Lastly, the spike is not missing, If I do not need it I request that customers keep them. This helmet has some unique characteristics which I have not encountered before so we are going to embark on a bit of a Sherlock Holmes mystery here mes amis. I will post additional pictures and invite comments. One "unique" feature is already shown in this posting.
 
Do you mean the front "leg" of the cruciform basis without a screw (like on some bavarian helmets), Brian, while there is hole underneath in the shell?..
Bruno
 
Yes, Doctor B. Watson, the front arm of the spike base is missing a star behind the eagle's crown. We do have a Dragoner officer helme here however. This helme has only 3 stars fastening the cruciform base but the front arm does not have the typical small flat head split brad used by the Bavarians. It was not made to have 4 stars. Neither was it done in the Bavarian mode. There is no hole in the front arm. Thank you dear Watson/ Bruno, you have discovered one unusual quality of this helme shown in the fotos but there is one more. Your other comment needs some further clarification. No attempt at Regimental identification of this dragoner helmet?? Regards, B. Holmes
 
This started out life as a Bavarian helmet, imo. The lack of the forward star and the 3-hole pattern on the front are uniquely Bavarian characteristics. The front arm sometimes had split prongs soldered to affix it, which is why there is a hole where there's no star stud. Can we see the underside of the spike base? I'd like to see more of the plate too- the details are really lacking...
 
b.loree said:
Yes, Doctor B. Watson, the front arm of the spike base is missing a star behind the eagle's crown. We do have a Dragoner officer helme here however. This helme has only 3 stars fastening the cruciform base but the front arm does not have the typical small flat head split brad used by the Bavarians. It was not made to have 4 stars. Neither was it done in the Bavarian mode. There is no hole in the front arm. Thank you dear Watson/ Bruno, you have discovered one unusual quality of this helme shown in the fotos but there is one more. Your other comment needs some further clarification. No attempt at Regimental identification of this dragoner helmet?? Regards, B. Holmes
Click to expand...

But of course, my dear Holmes, it goes without saying that this is not the typical Dragoner eagle! Too bad it is not silver instead of golden...
 
"This started out life as a Bavarian helmet, imo. The lack of the forward star and the 3-hole pattern on the front are uniquely Bavarian characteristics. The front arm sometimes had split prongs soldered to affix it, which is why there is a hole where there's no star stud. Can we see the underside of the spike base? I'd like to see more of the plate too- the details are really lacking..."

One must not jump to erroneous conclusions Watson. I shall provide more photographic evidence so that you can further exercise your powers of deduction and reason. Always remember old chap that the proof lies in the details!
My dear 911, you are correct, silver fittings would be better, especially in regard to chin scale mounts. However, this is still unique and quite a cut above the common "herd of hauben". Hmmm......me thinks that I have just coined a phrase in that last statement. Gentlemen, we still need a positive identification in this case! Regards to all, Holmes
 
As promised, some additional photographic evidence in the "Case of the Gallant Prussian Dragoner"......

80dfc032-f4f3-4774-b051-3777736a2a34.jpg


054e62f8-a1c1-4f86-82c0-92b8f338f8a2.jpg


22eb4e0c-5313-48ff-8745-85d86eb0d8c9.jpg


11d5c082-b54b-4923-81f1-2998b04a74ee.jpg

The game is afoot Watson!! Further comments and conjecture are welcomed gentlemen. Holmes
 
I stand by my original assessment. The spike base is completely typical Bavarian and I think the screw posts on the back of the plate have been applied to correspond with the original Bavarian 3-hole configuration (the spacing as it is now makes no sense for this plate). Question- is the top screw post identical to the other two in diameter, thread and the "cut and splay" base? Furthermore, the plate appears to have been bead or shell blasted to remove the traces of solder from the original post positions, although the tell-tale heat discolouration can still be seen on the back, and I think this accounts for the absence of gilding and overall softness of detail. Unfortunately the missing lacquer may have held further clues such as an impression...
 
Arran your argument has merit. I just looked at both an OR and officer Garde infantry helmets in my collection. The screw posts and loops
on the back of the wappen are soldered in a much wider configuration than this. There is of course, no split brad soldered to the neck of the eagle. The screw posts and split brad on this piece seem to be originals. They have the proper coarse thread and snipped tops where the nut screws on. The split brad has been made in the shape of a T so that it can be soldered to the wappen. This I have seen before on originals. There is some slight evidence of gilding in the feathers on the front of the wappen. There is more evidence of gilding on the back. It is also odd that we have the left post blobbed with solder so that you can not see the base and the other is completely clear and shows its base. Any evidence of solder in the old proper position, is gone. Whoever did this had skills, parts and knowledge of Dragoner helmets and their wappen. All in all Watson, I fine bit of sleuthing. Well done!
 
I think there is an area of reality many collectors somewhat miss ... a lot of pickels were modified by their owners as they raised in rank or even possibly changed divisions/units. It is not always the case of the dishonest dealer/collector making these mods.
 
Brian

Aside from Arran's correct assessment of this helmet starting out as a Bavarian, this is not the plate for DR 1, but rather a guard eagle that was never punched for a star, and the posts were positioned in the incorrect spacing to match the holes. Here is a DR 1 plate which has the bandeau through the chest and the correct "chicken on a stick" (vs. the grenadier plate which has the "artichoke on the stick") .

Regards

Dave
 
I am most interested in any sort of Regimental information for this helme anyone might have to offer ...
 
Another difference in the restoration helmet wappen is the cross guard of the sword. Square not serpentine.
 
Not all Dragoner pickels had the bandau that crossed the eagle chest. Although they are less common, it seems likely to me that if a 'standard' non-starred Wappen was not available, one with the 'split' bandau would be pressed into service. The helme from the Hogan's Heros title shot is a good example. Others are encountered often and are not necessarily incorrect.
 
SgtFury said:
Not all Dragoner pickels had the bandau that crossed the eagle chest. Although they are less common, it seems likely to me that if a 'standard' non-starred Wappen was not available, one with the 'split' bandau would be pressed into service. The helme from the Hogan's Heros title shot is a good example. Others are encountered often and are not necessarily incorrect.
Click to expand...

I beleive that a guard helmet plate missing the star as on your M15 (and often found on Lancer 1915 Tschapka), is very different than the brass guard eagle that has never had the holes cut for the guard star that Mr. Lorree is working on. This is very unique.

One thing to mention, on a normal guard eagle plate for foot troops the ends on the Bandeau on the ends of the wing tips curls upwards. Only on private purchased cavalry guard eagles do I see the end of the Bandeau at the wing tips curl downwards. And yes, both with bowtie (?) sword cross guards and eagle on the sceptre, just like normal foot troops but with the Bandeau ends reversed.
 
Well it has taken a bit of time and effort but here are some pics of the "finished" product. It is not perfect as it was when new but after 100 years, its not too bad. Any little white specs in the pics are the result of a small sleet shower coming through as I took these with the camera!






 
Hi

nice results

Could You write step by step the method of renovation? What do You use to fill the missing shellac places?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top