dragoon helmet help!

W

wawine

New member
I am new to this forum and this is my first post. This helmet just came from an attic in Idaho last month. German is not my specialty, but it appears to me to be a 1915 ersatz Dragoon. The shell is leather and both bills are pressed paper. The inside is stamped B.I.A. VII leading me to think it came from the repair depot of the 7th corps. What is really odd to me is the fittings. All of them match, but instead of being grey or oxidized, it is all painted greenish brown, much like the steel helments of the day, especially those from Austria. Does anybody know what this signifies? I am having problems with the photos, so any hints to get them to post would be great!
many thanks,
Doug
http://s1168.photobucket.com/albums/r489/dedreckoning1/dragoon%20helmet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Welcome to the forum, Doug. M15 helmets do sometimes come in brownish or greenish colour, instead of the regular "pewter" gray. I am not sure if this is due to aging of the paint or if such colours were used originally... but I am sure other members will have a clue.
Interesting helmet. It will be difficult to find a replacement spike though.

Bruno

This is the "Probe" of the M15 Prussian Dragoner helmet, that was sent as a model to helmet makers:

Picture506.jpg
 
Thanks for the input. My first thought was that the paint had yellowed, but it is too uniform and there are brush strokes seen in several places. It is almost like it was painted to look like tarnished brass.
Doug
helmet1915005.jpg
 
Welcome to the forum! I've not seen brush markes on any of my M15's (not to say it wasn't done?), so if somebody painted this, it may have been an owner who wanted the feel of brass, rather than gray trim (I've seen this done before, since the brighter metal is much more 'attractive'... a matter of opinion).
Overall, it looks like a nice helmet! My thought is that this would be a 'War Bond' helmet, converted to dragoon from a different shell (you can tell by the extra holes, and, owing to the plug on one, I'd say these were original and altered to fit the Dragoon eagle at the arsenal). Personally, other than looking for a replacement spike, which isn't easy with this helmet, I'd leave it as it is. But... that's me.

:D Ron
 
Thanks for the tips. I am new to the German side of things (my specialty is British and US), but I am aware of the 'War Bond' helmets. When you state this was possibly a conversion from another shell, do you mean in Germany, or when it came over here? It seems odd to me that it would have been converted over here, or post being found in the warehouse. I could see changing the plate, but the labor and expense to replace the bill and the spike base just to make it more appealing as a 'bond' reward, doesn't seem quite right. It does have stamps from B.I.A VII, which to me reads as a repair depot. Is it possible that right at the end of production, they were cobbling whatever they could find and rushing them to the front? Take whatever shell you had on hand, add whatever bills, plate and spike base to meet your needs, and paint them with the paint you had on hand for the steel pots and get it into the front ASAP. Many of the period steel pots I have seen do have rebrushed paint, even though they were supposed to be sprayed, so maybe these were done in the repair depots as well. The mix of leather shell, paper-fiber bills (with a correct dragoon square corner) and matching paint, although not normal, kind of makes logical sense to me for this scenario. Thoughts?
thanks again,
Doug
 
My intention is to leave this totally AS-IS, as I am more of an AS FOUND sort of collector. I have not even run a cloth over it, just a feather duster! What is the 'normal' thought process on restoration/repair/as-is regarding these?
thanks again,
Doug
 
I agree with Ron to leave it as it is, apart from the occasional dusting, because its very easy to damage a delicate pickelhaube. You could try to get matching cockades and a chinstrap, which are frequently offered on ebay etc. However, a spike will be more diffcult to obtain as mentioned already. If possible, I always try to get matching, authentic parts for my pickelhaubes if they lack any.

Regards,

Edwin
 
Hey Doug,
What part of Idaho are you located in? I am south central.
Best
Gus
 
I am actually in NW Washington. My son is a grad student in Archaeology at UI in Moscow, and I found it in an antique store when going to visit. On another, off topic note, I asked for info on this helmet from a bunch of other sources as well as this one and have already been offered $1000 for it. I had planned on keeping it, but maybe not. Is that a fair offer, or am I selling myself short? I have no idea at all, other than what I paid, which was much less than that.
thanks!
Doug
 
wawine said:
I asked for info on this helmet from a bunch of other sources as well as this one and have already been offered $1000 for it. I had planned on keeping it, but maybe not. Is that a fair offer, or am I selling myself short?
Click to expand...

Well pricing is always a difficult subject. I personally go for helmets in good to near mint condition. A common helmet in poor condition goes for much less than the same helmet in near mint condition.

Your helmet seems to be in OK condition but I would need to see a lot more photos or examine it personally before giving you a price.

This helmet could be perfect as-is for some collectors and possibly only for parts for other collectors.

The one thing in my opinion that you have going against you with this helmet is the double holes. Some collectors can explain in great detail why the double holes are there and that they are of the "time period" or original to the helmet. I am not trying to say that they are wrong but for me it would always bother me knowing that they are there. I don't want "questionable" helmets in my collection personally.

Just my opinion. :)
 
Welcome to the forum. My thoughts......I believe this to have been a pre war shell with brass fittings that was converted to an M15. Note that the extra set of holes have had the grommets removed. In my opinion, they were brass. I have seen examples where they left the brass grommets in and converted everything else to grey. In addition, the holes for the Dragoon wappen have proper grey M15 grommets. I have seen these conversions before and they were done during the war. Also note the F below the Army Korps markings. I believe that we identified this previously on the forum as indicating a repair that was now accepted for field use. I would also check the visor stitch line under the liner for extra stitch holes which would indicate that the visors are not original to the shell. You might also have extra holes where the front visor trim split brads hold the trim to the shell. This would also indicate a conversion from infantry to dragoon.
If we took the spike support disc off we might find an extra set of spike base holes.
Another clue is the liner itself, normal M15's ie made during the war have undyed liners, pre war are always dyed black on one side. This one is obviously dyed.
How are the extra holes plugged? Normally, they are plugged with leather then shellaced over. Some times they glued a thin circle of leather to the inside of the hole. I have seen some plugged with black painted flat headed split brads as well. If this were a conversion from pre war brass infantry....we might also see extra holes in the shell where a new M15 dragoon rear spine would have been put on. A thousand for this is very generous in my opinion...no spike, extra holes and visors that need restitching, no chin strap or kokarden. I am not trying to be ignorant in stating this, just my opinion. In addition, if you purchase something with problems you then have to live with them and in the end have to explain them away to another potential buyer.
 
So if this is in fact a correct period conversion, is that in itself a problem as you state? Or rather the lack of spike, chinstrap, cockades and loss of stitching on the bill? I don't mean to dispute, I just am new to this type of helmet and don't know the correct terminology.
thanks,
Doug
 
Hi Doug: I believe that it is a legitimate war time conversion. In my mind there were two reasons for this...a desperate brass shortage in Germany and the fact that the M15 grey fittings provided better concealment ie. "less shine". The whole uberzug (helmet cover) business was an effort to cover up the brass fittings. Some comments were also made about the colour of the wappen etc on this piece. The colours of M15 fittings also vary. In my experience, there are 4 basic colours to the M15 fittings... grey, feldgrau, silver, and this brownish colour. Some fittings are just unfinished steel so I guess that makes 5. If you ever want the visors on this helmet restitched let me know as it is an easy restoration. Most collectors do not like extra holes in the shell. Most times, this indicates that the piece has been messed with. However, in this case we have steel grommets in the holes made for this dragoon wappen and we have the correct squared front visor, plus the F stamp. Consequently, to me this is "legit". The missing kokarden are easily replaced (either repros or originals). Repro chin straps run approx $25, orignals...$ 150 and up. The spike is the kicker, almost impossible to find and even then it may not fit your base nor match the colour of your fittings. By the way, thank you for your post as it has generated some interesting comments and opened up this whole question of refurbished/converted helmets.
 
Sorry I didn't answer you earlier, we're getting ready to go over the pond and are rather busy packing and such... anyway, I think Brian and everybody else has answered your questions.
It's a nice helmet and agree that it's original... I'd hold onto it for a while, but then I collect helemts. :)


:D Ron
 
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