East Asian Infantry EM Pickelhaube M1895?

[RON]

Hello all!
This pickelhaube doesn't have the typical spike base (removable to be replaced by a cap) of the M1900 East Asian pickelhaube nor the elongated spike ventilation holes of the previous model. More like a regular M1895 spike + base and yet the rest looks East Asian...
And does the stitching seem OK to you?
Also, what do you make of the wappen prongs and the way they pierce through the shell right under the factory slots?
Last but not least, can someone make out the stamp on the last photo to see if it's truly East Asian?

 

[RON]

Colonial headgear is always tough to assess due to the lack of regulations prior to 1900 I guess...

 

[b.loree]

I have no experience with these helmets Ron but everything I do see in your pictures does look original.

 

[KAGGR#1]

Hello all!
This pickelhaube doesn't have the typical spike base (removable to be replaced by a cap) of the M1900 East Asian pickelhaube nor the elongated spike ventilation holes of the previous model. More like a regular M1895 spike + base and yet the rest looks East Asian...
And does the stitching seem OK to you?
Also, what do you make of the wappen prongs and the way they pierce through the shell right under the factory slots?
Last but not least, can someone make out the stamp on the last photo to see if it's truly East Asian?

I think that Zeb would be the man to speak about this helmet
I thought that there were slots for the eagle to slip into
maybe that is the officers helmet?
Steve

 

[RON]

Thanks Brian and Steve.
The typical M1900 East Asian pickelhaube’s Reichs adler was fixed to the shell with screws and bolts, if I’m not mistaken.
This one has prongs piercing through the felt right below the factory prepunched slots. Here are some better photos. I can now make out what seems to be a ‘JR 174’ (red circle) and a ‘B’ (?) (red arrow) stamped on the inside of the back visor.
Was Infantry Regt. 174 actually stationed in East Asia/China?

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello Ronny,
Your helmet is indeed the model intended for the Ostasiatische Brigade. Its shell is indeed made of leather covered with "Steingrau" felt, the visor of Shako type, without the brass border but just with a leather hem, and without the rear spine like the M67 infantry models.
But, as you say, the tip is not of the right model because the authentic "Troppenhelm" version is exchangeable with an unscrewable disc and the ventilator is guillotine, as on the colonial helmets.
Ditto, the Reichsadler was affixed later, the 2 vertical rods are in fact provided for the Troppenhelm in cork. The Reichsadler for China, was either with Prussian Infantry type M67 attachment (bridges on the hull and long vertical lugs) or with threaded studs and nuts, or as on the picture, with original single attachment for the officers. (see photos).


B.A.0. = Beckleidungs-Amt-0stasiatische Besatzungsbrigade.

The good helmets for the Chinese Expeditionary Force had a specific tip, (see photos) and especially an adapted stamp. (see photo).

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Now I come to your helmet Ronny:
In fact, in 1905-1906, the Prussian army requested a study for "camouflaged" tip helmets that could be called "Feldgrau". Thus 2 models were proposed and tested in two line regiments but were not adopted. In 1914 they were taken out of storage, and distributed as ersatz.

1--- Patent Galow 1906, helmet model 1895 but with a gray felt on the shell only.
2--- The other proposal was the resumption of the hull of the "Asian" model, that is to say no rear spine, no brass border for the visor, neck cover, reinforcement under kokades and visor in leather painted in green.
The test model 1906 type Asiatic, is absolutely identical except for the front plate which is no longer the Reichsadler but the Prussian Linienadler.


Photo below the "Probe" of this test, with the line eagle.
The faceplate was the simple Linien-Adler since it was a field helmet for the infantry.
Above, this test model (asiatic typ) was distributed for testing to the Infanterie-Lehr-Regiment in Berlin.
As can be seen, in 1906 it still had the special "tropical" tip, but in 1914 this model went back into "ersatz" service, but most often with the simple regulation tip M95.


Ronny, in conclusion:
your helmet is indeed of the 1906 test model as supra. It should show the M95 line eagle, with trigger guard and leather wedge to engage in the 2 horizontal slots. And the tip was the regulation M87-95, with black steel "Teller" underneath and 4 brass rivets with 2 folding lugs. The n° 174 JR shows that it is a helmet of the mobilization, attributed to a soldier of this Lorraine regiment.

 

[RON]

Bon dimanche Clovis et un grand merci pour avoir finalement élucidé le mystère! I will switch back to English now so that everyone can follow this post which Clovis made quite interesting!
Just to make sure I understand, are you saying the only thing wrong on the helmet, in addition to what’s obviously a fake chinstrap, is the wrong wappen? But then again, didn’t the Germans stationed in Alsace Lorraine during its occupation (1870-1918) wear the Reichsadler anyway (like for instance the Kaiserliche Reichsgendarmerie or the Schutzmannschaft [Imperial Constabulary])?
Also, could the below be a faint B.A.O. stamp (to the right of the ‘JR 147’ stamp):

 

[Lars13]

But then again, didn’t the Germans stationed in Alsace Lorraine during its occupation

Hi Ron,
No, the troops used their designated Wappen, regardless of where they were stationed.
Very interesting helmet, 1906 trial helmet reissued 1914!
Regards,
Lars

 

[RON]

Hi Ron,
No, the troops used their designated Wappen, regardless of where they were stationed.
Very interesting helmet, 1906 trial helmet reissued 1914!
Regards,
Lars

Hi Lars. In other words, in Alsace Lorraine, only the police (Reichsgendarmerie & Schutzmannschaft) wore the Reichsadler on their pickelhaubes?
Also, what about what looks like a faint “B.A.O.” stamp next to the more visible (being more recent chronologically) “JR 147” stamp (see last closeup with red circle)? Could this be an actual East Asian shell that was recycled to a 1906 trial helmet and in 1914 issued as an Ersatz helmet before it was tampered with by collectors post war?

 

[Lars13]

Could this be an actual East Asian shell that was recycled to a 1906 trial helmet and in 1914 issued as an Ersatz helmet

Hi Ron,
I don't know, I haven't found that much on the 1906 trials and where the helmets came from, maybe Clovis knows more?
Regards,
Lars

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Bonjour Ron,
---The Reichsadler equipped only the colonial troops of the German colonies (Southeast Asia, West Africa).
The Reichsland, not being a colony but an annex of the Reich, was considered to be entirely part of Germany. Therefore, the military units wore the front plates with the arms of their Land (Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria), even when garrisoned in Metz or Strasbourg. On the other hand, the Beamten, Military Magistrate, Gendarmes etc... showed the imperial eagle.
---
Regarding the last question:
---The "probe" that I put in the picture, is definitely a new construction subject to the approval of the High Staff of the Army. It is known that a very small production was tested in the Infanterie-Lehr-Regiment stationed in Berlin and in the KIR 145 (King's Regiment) stationed in Metz. But not accepted because of the high production costs, these helmets were reformed, stored and redistributed in 1914.
*** The BAO mark is always marked on the right side, when you look at the helmet from the inside (see the picture of mine) Ron, if you examine your helmet well, under your red arrow, you can see the same mark BAO. Yours is indeed an old "Asiatisches" but attributed to R174 at mobilization. As a result, it was given a standard M95 point, and the Prussian eagle of the line corresponding to the plate of this regiment was applied to it.
***The Reichsadler is a contemporary remounting, to make it look like it did in the South East Asia Expeditionary Force.
But as it is a former "Asiatic", the Reichsadler is not prohibitive, simply no more in conformity with its state of 1914, in the regiment JR174. ( Prusse Linien-Adler)
I have a Copyright photo, belonging to Philippe (Argonne). It is the helmet of test in 1906 with the KIR145. It shows this "Asian" helmet with the eagle of line and ... without ... to see the special ventilation.
Philippe, if you look at us...

 

[RON]

Merci énormément Charles. A nice helmet with an interesting history apart from the missing Prussian wappen and the repro chinstrap. To return it to its original state would be quite hard since I’d have to find the correct M1900 East Asian spike & base + a reichsadler with the correct nuts & bolts so better keep it with the seller but inform him of all my findings as he’s an honest guy who would use my description to properly sell the helmet without cheating the next buyer…

 

[Lars13]

Hi Ron,
Imo all you need is a Prussian Wappen, then it would be as it was issued in WW 1, which fits all the markings and the history of the helmet.
Regards,
Lars