Enlisted Model 1871

Kjell-Bjarne

Kjell-Bjarne

New member
Hello All,
Here are some photos of my latest acquisition: an enlisted Model 1871 Guard Grenadier. I apologize for the poor quality of the photos. My attempts at diffused lighting failed miserably. In the area of photography, as in so many others, Tony remains the master.

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The neck guard is ink stamped G.G.R.5 1.B. 2.C III, which I make out to be Garde-Grenadier-Rgt. Nr. 5, 1. Bataillon, 2. Companie, III. Garnitur

The helmet poses a few questions:

1. Garde-Grenadier-Rgt. Nr. 5 was formed in 1897. Why would a new regiment be using an old model helmet? The ink stamp, in my opinion, is authentic. (The leather is very dark, and there isn't sufficient contrast for my digital camera.)

2. The helmet bell is stamped L. G. 1887 in the forehead area (inside behind the eagle). I know there was a discussion on the old forum about the L G mark, but unfortunately that was before I came on board.

3. There is evidence of two holes that have been plugged (very far apart, very old, and very well done), just slightly inside the present holes. Given the wingspan of the guard eagle, I can't imagine that any other Wappen would have matched the holes.

4. There is an impression on the left suggesting that a cockade might have been worn on the left side, which would indicate that the helmet was in use after 1897, the year that the Reichskokarde was introduced. The helmet had only the Prussian kokarde on the right side when I bought it, and I left it that way.

Any thoughts or comments?
 
Hi K B:
A couple of possibilities here: we have all read about the re issue of old style helmets once the war got started. This could account for the Regt markings from an 1897 Regt on an older helmet. These and other pre 71 helmets were also cut down and re stitched. I have also encountered many original M95 helmets that were converted to M15s by taking off the brass fittings. Often they removed the original brass grommets as well.
I believe that we settled on LG meaning Leib Gendarmerie ie military police. I have a helmet exactly like this with the LG marking plus date in the same position. My wappen however is the grenadier eagle without garde star. Tony was our main source for info in the old forum thread. As to plugs this was also done. The method used was to glue a circular leather patch on the inside then glue the plugs in place. New finish was then applied to cover the plugs on the outside of the shell.
Another method I have seen on an M15 helmet... which was one of the revamped M95's were black painted flat headed metal split brads. They stuck the brads in the holes and then spread the pins thus filling the extra holes. In the majority of cases however, when the old holes are going to be covered by the new wappen they did not bother to fill in. Nice helmet though, congratulations. Brian
 
Hello Brian,
Thanks for your comments on the helmet. When you said Leib Gendarmerie, a lot of gears meshed in my mind: the Leib Gendarmerie were indeed military police, but they were part of the Garde Korps as well. It makes perfect sense that a helmet might circulate within the same Korps.

I have been able to find next to no information on the Leib Gendarmerie beyond their belonging to the Garde Korps, but the name suggests that they were a bodyguard of sorts.

Does anyone know more?

Thanks!
 
I hate to disagree with Brian. However, there have been two threads. One on the old and one on the new. Colonel Ron posted a group of pictures of a lieb gendarmes helmet.

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The L. G. it is something called Landes gendarmes.
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We were unable to get anyone to participate in commenting on the LG uniform of this picture.

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So at some point this helmet move between the LG and GG R.
 
The Land Gendarmerie (or Landes gendarme) whch I have also seen them called) were not military police. They were rural police. Unfortunately, none of the old information I researched and posted was backed up prior to the crash, so it is gone. There were two types of these guys, mounted which look exactly like Garde Dragoner and foot, which look exactly like Garde Grenadier. They originally started out with an Alter Art Grenadier eagle, but then at some point (now lost due to the crash) they went to the Garde pattern chciken with star. So they wore both. The majority of these LG helmets are impressed with dates ranging from early 1889 to mid 1890. What is confusing, is that this helmet has stamps that it was issued to the G.G.R.5 which I alos translate as Garde-Grenadier-Rgt. Nr. 5, but they were raised in 1897. (?). There is probably a very explanation that will never be found, such as a stock pile of LG helmets that were aquired for the new Regt when it was raised, or that for the new regt a Battalion was raised from the ranks of the Land Gendarmerie (not unusual for a new regt) or something like that. But I have no idea. It looks like a great helmet Kjell, I love this early pattern.
 
Tony, thanks for your comments and compliment. This particular helmet is my only Model 1871 and a favorite in my collection as well.

In The Imperial German Regimental Marking by Jeff Noll, he lists L.G as meaning both Land Gendarmerie and Leib Gendarmerie. Both opinions have been expressed here. It's a subject I'd like to pursue further and will post any information I'm able to discover. Thanks again to all who contributed.

Joe, I agree that the Leib Gendarmerie wore the type of metal helmets you posted. The only illustration I have been able to find of them - a drawing - shows just that type of helmet. But was it the only type? To illustrate my point: The guard grenadiers wore 18th-century-style mitre helmets on parade; but they wore spiked helmets for garrison duties and in the field. All I am suggesting is, is that one type of helmet doesn't necessarily rule out all others. Again, a subject deserving more research.

Skøl!
 
Well, never say never in the hobby, as helmets often bounced from unit to unit based upon seniority, i.e.: a Regt would get a new model helmet and then the older ones would be passed on to someone else etc. A newly raised Regt would receive the "hand-me-downs" when the senior regt received new issues.

To illustrate how confusing the markings can be, I have a helmet coming which is marked to a Dragoner regt, but it has gilt fittings when it should be silver. It turns out the helmet was issued to the regt immediately after the state joined the North-German Confederation, and although absorbed into the German numerical regimental system, it was probably years before they actually received the "correct" helmets with silver fittings.

But Kjell, I believe that in your case, the Leib Gendarmerie, like the Kürassier, only wore the Metalhelme. So this helmet would appear to have been made originally for the Land Gendarmerie , then somehow issued to G.G.R.5. Again, GREAT HELMET!.
 
Hi K-B and Co,

It's a very very nice helmet, all my congratulations and thank you for sharing this pleasure with us!!! :shock:

Joe, Colonel Ron is starting to drive me nervous please stop to send such pictures!! :cry: !! It's a joke for sure...

I'm waiting for some new pictures from Ron and espacially some nice tschapkas :wink:

Maxime
 
But was it the only type?
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With the exception of the Noll listing I do not know where Lieb gendarmes entered the picture. I agree with Tony that helmets got handed back and forth. I think you're helmet is wonderful, unless somehow the rear visor was detached and a new one reattached. I really doubt that in this case. The LG markings on the top of the crown are for provincial police. Rural police, county police, provincial police, nonurban area police. What they have in common is the word police. I do not know what the LG uniform looked like. I understand what the helmets look like, but the uniform itself I do not know.

There was another type of hat for the Lieb gendarmes -- at least the second platoon.
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The only discussion of the unit that I'm aware of is in Martin's book "Mother Country Fatherland". That horrible officer himself is the guy in the Dragoon uniform leading this platoon.
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Perhaps someday we can put to bed that the LG marks on the top of helmets. Leather helmets that is... is a police derivative. Maybe James has something in his police book on this.
 
Hi All:
Thanks for jumping in T. I now remember that the correct description of my helmet was Landes Gendarmerie or rural police non mounted because of the flat chin scales that it carries. My helmet although clearly a model 1871 bears the L.G. 1890 stamp in the front inside of the shell. There is also evidence of a rectangular ink stamp on the rear visor but unfortunately I can not read the rest of the markings within this. Sorry for the confusion guys. One question for K B, does the spike on this helmet unscrew? Brian
 
joerookery said:
//I do not know what the LG uniform looked like. I understand what the helmets look like, but the uniform itself I do not know.
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Like this! Note the Polish cuffs which were blue. This fellow is wearing the LG helmet before they adopted the Garde star onto the Wappen.

I obtained the info from a friend, the book he quoted is the bible on this subject, Ingo Löhken Die Polizei-Uniformen in Preussen 1866 1945 but I do not have a copy sadly.


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Note the Polish cuffs which were blue
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Hmmmmm..... I'm not a uniform guy, but with the exception of the cuffs and the timeframe of these two pictures, your photo uniform looks similar to the one posted above. I think.
 
Here are two pictures of my LG 1890 helme. It seems to be the exact model shown in Tony's picture. The helmet came with both Reichs and Prussian kokarden. Brian
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Chip Minx said:
What is that stripe just above the cuff on the Landes Gendarmes left sleeve (in the photo)?
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Alway wit da tough questions. It is not the old Schützen-Abzeichen of course, but I do not have the Preußen Polizei book unfortunately. But I do have the Polizei book for the Southern States. For Baden (dangerous to make generalizations I know...) the rank was indicated by three widths of stripes on the left sleeve above the cuff. The fat stripe was for a Gendarmerieoberwachtmeister.
 
One question for K B, does the spike on this helmet unscrew?
Click to expand...

Hello Brian,
I tried to give the spike a twist, but no go. Thanks for posting pics of your 1871 Grenadier. It's a beauty!

Thanks for the photo and reference, Tony. Sounds like a book I need to add to my library.

Cheers,
 
Kjell,

Not to change the subject but I wanted to comment on the stand in your picture. Do you make them? It looks wonderful.

Paul

P.S. The helmet is very nice also.
 
Thanks for the compliment, Paul!
No, I didn't make the stand. I'll tell you a deep, dark secret: it's a candlestick.
I was faced with the problem we all face, i.e., how to display my helmets so their weight would not rest on the visors. And I wanted something that was readily available and aesthetically pleasing. To make a long story short, I came up with the candlestick idea.
I use sticks between 10 and 11 inches tall with a top that flares out to a diameter of about 3 to 4 inches. The wide top fits nicely into the bell of the helmet and helps balance it. I also wrap the top with cloth to prevent direct contact between the metal and the helmet.
Another advantage is the price: they can be had very cheap on sale. The only drawback that I have found is that a candlestick doesn't support the helmet liner, i.e., the leather tongues are free to droop. On some of my helmets they do; on some they don't. It's a problem I haven't found a solution for yet.

Cheers,
 
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