Ersatz Ulan Mark

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
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Another BAIX ersatz Ulan with a leather trim. So which Ulan unit was it in BAIX? I think this has come up before.
 
Joe

About the uhlan units for BAIX, how about none. I'll defer to the "issued" gurus, but IMO leather trim on felt = repop.

Dave
 
I have one just like it that I bought quite some years ago. Same markings, etc only mine is Saxon. Oh yes, and just as fake.
 
Arrrgh!!! Reminds me of the Prussian M15 filz leather trimmed shako that sits in my collection at this moment. Tony and Chas know the one!! I find this series of fakes very very frustrating because they are so good. Why screw up with leather trim which is a dead give away?? Why go to all of the work involved to make these things and then put leather trim on? Who made them and why?? Were they made for some movie company? My impression is that they were made before the boom in haube collecting. Consequently the profit involved would not have been that much. I really wish that we could track down some information on the source and history of these fakes. Brian
 
What we should do is try & create some sort of a time line as to when these started showing up. All of the older collectors should chime in & try to remember the first time they saw or handled one.

The first one I saw, a Tshako, was in Boston about 1991-1993. It had a standard Prussian wappen & the brown leather trim. At the time, there was quite a bit of leather dryrot on the exterior of the Tshako.. Which, then led me to believe that a bunch of them had been stacked for a long period of time. The dryrot residue would have been from the liner of the example that was stacked on directly on top of it. Does anybody else out there remember seeing this on any examples they've handled?? (Please look if you still have one.) If they had have been stacked like this allowing the dryrot to bleed into the felt on the example underneath.. There could have been no insignia on it at the time.. All uncompleted. Totally blank examples. (I never even clued into the no insignia part at that time, I'm only thinking of it now while I'm typing.)

Where did they come from? Who made them? Have heard a bunch of different theories but nothing concrete yet. I'm with Brian... I'd like to solve these.

The possibilities floating around in my mind are

1- Outright repros.

-Again the quality of the helmets were extremely good for 20 years ago when nobody really cared about them.

-I have also heard a theory (again I stress theory) that these were totally made in the UK in the 1970's... But why, & for who? I have seen & handled one of the more recent felt Ulan copies out of the UK & the quality of the felt was very poor, as was the stitching holding it all together, in hand there is no way it could be confused for an original. (While on these leather trimmed examples... The felt looks very good.) You would think, if anything, they would have gotten better at making them... not worse.

Or

2- Partial Fakes. I'm leaning towards this one.

The reason I say partial is that there are various components that are definitely not correct.

Maybe (and this is a big maybe), somebody found a stockpile of just plain uncompleted & partially completed shells back in the 1970's or early 80's. There would have been no need to complete them once hostilities ended in 1918, so they would have just sat and collected dust (and the liners dry-rotted) for decades. Maybe it was just one small shop... Several hundred examples surviving??? Who knows.

From there, they could have been sold off to an enterprising/crooked dealer or collector who then added whatever insignia he wished, replaced the liners and added appropriate bogus markings to try and justify whatever wappen he added.

The one common thread that ties all these examples together is that brown leather trim. As Tony will tell you... There is yet to be any period photographic evidence of these being worn with the brown leather trim, and he's looked at thousands of images for many years.

There is no way I would put one of these in my collection, not in a Zillion years... But I'm still interested in knowing the exact truth behind these.

So... If you have seen or handled one of these, try to remember where & when and add it to this post.

Pete
 
Joe:
Once I have time I will post some pics of my Prussian M15 Shako. I think that pictures will help to show the similarities of construction. I bought this approx 4 years ago from an older collector who was selling out. He may have purchased it from Brian Lawrence, a Canadian dealer who owned a shop north of here in a town called Stayner. Lawrence had many dealer contacts in the US and attended the MAX show every year. I spent quite a bit of cash in his shop on good helmets. I found out later that he was selling a collection for a widow in Toronto acting as the middle man. Ahhh those were the "single" days when I could buy a helme and eat Kraft Dinner for the next 2 months!!! Brian
 
ErsatzBoy said:
Partial Fakes. I'm leaning towards this one.
Click to expand...

So Peter how do you explain that the Tschakos and Tschapkas are exactly the same? Look at the Tschapka that started this thread. Same felt, same brown trim, same semi-stiff liners, everything.

My vote is that the recent fakes from the UK were made by some clown who was not very talented. They are junk as you know. Absolute garbage.

But these leather trimmed jobs are very well done. My thought is that these were made by a company makes felt hats. Some enterprising jerk some years ago had a batch of Tschako, Tschapka, and Busby shells made on contract without parts. Several hundred by the looks of it, and then added parts to them. On most of the examples I have handled, the parts are original. 20+ years ago you could buy a smashed beater Pickelhaube with all the parts for $25. So finding parts to place on those newly made felt shells would have been easy. And even then, profitable.

Chas, post yer pics here again, and Brian can post his and others can compare. I have loads of pics but I don't own them.

Actually, want to see one? Look here. http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/3328.htm

This one is particularly hilarious, get this ! A Filz Ersatz helmet, dated 1912! I almost fell off my chair laughing! And it can be yours for only $2995 USD.
 
Hi T:
Here are my pics. Feels like I have been on this forum all day. The similarities between my shako and Der R's are very evident. In both cases you can see the path made in the outside felt by the sewing machine when the liner was stitched in. You do not see this mark on originals. The thread is exactly the same colour of green. Note too re the thread how shiny it is. This is Mercerized thread which is shiny green unlike that which is used on the originals. The liner is also more of a soft glove type leather dyed on both sides, which is not original. True liners are either dyed black on the hair side (smooth) or left natural with no dye at all. Original German felt seems to have more of a knap on it than the felt used on these. The feldzeichen and kokarde are originals added on by myself. However, you can see how convincing these are. The chin strap, wappen and M91 posts are all very very good...originals/copies???? I do not know. On the M91's there are no tin washers/renforcements. Tony, I think you should post the pics you have if we do not get several examples shown here. We need to clear this up once and for all. Members should also know, that when we post pics regarding these fakes, those of us that are stuck with them are costing ourselves probably $500US. I had no intention of selling this as an original but I will have to off load it one of these days. Hmmm, perhaps Der R might take the bait?? One last comment re the ink stamped markings shown on others (mine has none). Someone, either a dealer or collector had experience in this whole affair. They knew what they were doing. Brian

LoganSwimLesson031.jpg


LoganSwimLesson032.jpg


LoganSwimLesson034.jpg


LoganSwimLesson036.jpg
 
b.loree said:
In both cases you can see the path made in the outside felt by the sewing machine when the liner was stitched in. You do not see this mark on originals.
Click to expand...

Eh? How else would the liner be held in? On all original Filz Ersatz helmets of all patterns (Pickelhaube, Tschako, etc) the liner is sewn completely around the circumference and the stitching is visible on the exterior. On originals they are found usually machine-sewn but occasionally hand sewn.

You can see from the side profile how similar the two Tschako are. Here is an important feature: they both swoop up and around the ear, while on originals there is a flat space between the two visors, like on a leather Tschako or Pickelhaube .

b.loree said:
Feels like I have been on this forum all day.
Click to expand...
See what you started? I check every day a few times. 8-[ And I'm not the only one. T
 
Hi T:
The point re the path/mark made by the sewing machine, is that on originals you do not see this on the outside of the piece at least not on filz helme with spike or kugel that I have. To me this means that the machine used was like a typical sewing machine (like my moms') where the foot travels along the surface of the cloth. If you check leather hauben, the foot marks/tracks are on the inside of the helmet not on the outside marking up the finish. Brian
 
Brian & Tony: For what it worth, the leather trim and liners in these copy shakos are just about identical in terms of leather grain and stain to copy third reich helmet chinstraps & flare pistol holsters that came out of eastern Europe (Hungary or the Czech Republic) several years ago.

Reservist1
 
Tony

I agree.. Especially seeing all these Tshakos side by side. The liners look like the only examples that have been in those ones. From the pics I don't see any evidence of re-stitching and that green thread is definitely not right. So that blows my theory #2 out of the water.

-Chas or Brian.. Is there enough loose thread there that you can do a burn test to see if its synthetic or not?

-Reservist1.. Can you get some photos of the fake Czech trim/leather that you mentioned. It would be really good if we could do a side by side comparison of the two trims.

Does any body have any other images of the fake Ulan examples & or any more of the bogus markings.

Brian, for whats it worth...I'll give you a couple of hundred bucks for yours. I would really like to have one of these fake example as a control sample. I bought one of the more recent UK fakes just for that very purpose. I just got done taking photo's of it today.. Will try to get them posted here tomorrow.

Pete
 
Heres the UK made repro, part 1. As you can see its not going to fool any serious collector. Very poor materials & construction

Pete

fakeUlan1.jpg
 
ErsatzBoy said:
Brian, for whats it worth...I'll give you a couple of hundred bucks for yours.
Click to expand...
Hi Pete:

I'd love to unload mine. A Sachsen Maschinengewehr Abteilung trumps a Preußen Jäger any day of the week.

No loose threads, but I can black light it.

Chas.
 
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