German Foot Artillery - Puzzler

Steve Nick

Steve Nick

Well-known member
I have spent the the last couple of days researching and touching up the "never before seen" photos from my next door neighbours great uncle.

He was with the Prussian Foot Artillery from 1914 with the 4th Foot Artillery Regiment (Magdeburg) to the end of the war manning 21cm Mortars and 15 cm Naval guns.

Among the photos I found these very intriguing.

The first two show what appears to be a gun battery showing a 105mm gun mounted in an extreme elevation either for long range or anti-aircraft application. I say AA application based on a note on the back of one of the pictures shown in photo #4 which seems to read Flieger Gewehr. What I don't get is how would this be served in action? How would it be re-loaded? How would recoil be handled?


The 3rd picture shows a group of artillerymen, three of whom I recognize from the rest of the photo album. The 2nd , 3rd and 4th from the left. (#4 is the great uncle). I'm speculating here but is it possible that these guys are on a training course? Have a look at the sign behind the man in picture #5. I'm guessing that the top line may be Schule (school) and the bottom line could be Flieger ?

Is it possible that these men are on an Anti Aircraft course and the gun photos are at the gunnery school?
 

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That's what I thought, yet if you look in the background in the first picture you can see two more guns in the same position. So the system must have been viable? I believe the gun is a 105mm naval gun. The rounds would be pretty heavy , so how do you load them? And, you're right, how would that gun platform absorb the recoil? Plus I can't imagine the rate of fire would have been very effective.

Very strange set-up.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Tony.
 
My habit is not to reply if I don’t know, but as you are aware the Germans first attempt at as anti-aircraft was mounting a 7,7cm leichte Feld Kanone (l.F.K.) 96 n/A in a vertical mount. The image looks somewhat like this being under development? In that they look like they’re trying to establish the angle and those are not the actual canon intended to be used? But Sandy’s observation that they might be Verschwind-Lafette is worth investigating..
 
Actually, one of the other photos in the album shows a crew posing with range finding equipment etc. around what appears to be a 77mm gun mounted in what seems like an anti-aircraft position.
 
Steve Nick said:
Actually, one of the other photos in the album shows a crew posing with range finding equipment etc. around what appears to be a 77mm gun mounted in what seems like an anti-aircraft position.
Click to expand...
Its for sure an anti aircraft gun. Its written on photo 4 „Unsere Flieger-Abwehr aus Rowno“ (Our anti Aircraft from Rowno)
 
Sandmann said:
Could it be a kind of Verschwind-Lafette? These were guns that disappeared back down into the bunker due to the recoil after a shot. So it was safer to load it. But it‘s just a thought.
Looks a bit like Picture 20 found on this site:
https://www.festung-oberland.ch/sperren/grenzbrigade-9/lodrino-osogna/
Click to expand...
Sandy:

It does look like a similar arrangement with a more rugged gun platform. Maybe the site was an experimental gunnery operation. If that's the case taking photographs of what might be an experimental project wasn't a good idea. These guys took lots of photos which they could probably get away with because they were typically miles behind the lines.

Thanks for taking the time to post a possible explanation.
 
Sandmann said:
Its for sure an anti aircraft gun. Its written on photo 4 „Unsere Flieger-Abwehr aus Rowno“ (Our anti Aircraft from Rowno)
Click to expand...
Sandy:

Thanks for your translation. My German "ist nicht sehr gut" and my Sutterlin is even worse. I did recognize the term Flieger so I figured it had to be some anti-aircraft experiment/application.

Your help on this is appreciated.
 
As a Gunner (Lieutenant-Colonel - Royal Canadian Artillery retired) I can't resist jumping in.

Wow this certainly is a puzzler. There was a lot of crazy stuff trialled during both wars and I was thinking the same thing as Sandy. But the mechanism looks like it cannot be put up and down but it's more of a tilting system given the rope around the muzzle to pull the gun forward and down. And that long bar at the other end looks like a giant version of what we call the "Hand Spike", which is used to traverse a howitzer manually. It is located on one trail (leg of the gun carriage) and on the other trail there is a towing hook. These are used by the gun detachment to traverse the gun. Have a look at a WWII US 105 MM towed howitzer (AKA C1 when used by Canada) and you will see what I mean.

C1 Howitzer.jpeg

What the German mechanism in the pictures will do is provide for higher and lower angles of elevation (changing range) as not only can you change the elevation with the screw mechanism (round ring) under the gun but you could also achieve other angles by tilting the gun. For the life of me though I cannot imagine how they did the fire control to aim the gun so perhaps it was just to put up a curtain of flack.

Now here is another interesting "concept" picture.....

Crazy Guns.jpeg

This page is quite interesting reading on the whole subject of WWI anti-aircraft weapons:

www.quora.com

Were there anti aircraft guns in world war I?

Answer (1 of 6): Yes, of course. Historically, there were various types of anti-aircraft guns were developed and used by both the Entente and the Central Powers during World War I (1914–1918). My short answer today will mostly focus on typical anti-aircraft guns of the German Army. A German 7.7 ...
www.quora.com www.quora.com

Cheers.

Peter
 
It seems Rowno is in what was eastern Pommerania in what is now Poland. So the site was in German territory not in an active part of the front which supports the case for it being an experimental/development facility.
 
Peter:

By all means feel free to "jump in". I was hoping a gunner would find this of interest. Very interesting comments and the photo lends credence to this being some sort of AA application in development.

Thanks for getting involved.
 
Re. Tony's post . I think the gun in use here is a 77mm Field Artillery piece. Possibly taken at the same site as the initial photos.

I think there must be something unusual about the rounds they are posing with ? As an aside, if you look closely you can see the image of a girl in the lid of the box between the two artillery rounds.


img013 Ranging Re-Sized.jpg
 
Okay so a friend of mine - another retired Canadian Artillery Lieutenant-Colonel found the answer. Here is what he sent me:

OK so this is a 90mm Flack gun (fortress).

image.png
There are a lot of similarities and I would say it's a match.

The gun in the background shows it in maintenance mode (and that is probably what that rope on the muzzle is used for - to pull it down.

It doesn't look like it has a disappearing mechanism, nor does it look like it has a recoil system except the trails. I would want a long lanyard.

That platform must be used for loading and aiming - looks like iron sites above the breach.

My gut feel is that this has a ~150-250 round life span. The barrel my survive but that scaffolding they use for trunnions is shaky at best

A trailer mounted system here:

image2.png

Looks like a big improvement and finally:
image3.png
Add a recoil system and you have the dreaded '88
 
Peter:

Puzzle solved! No question that the photo is a match. The platform that is missing in my photo answers how they would go about loading/reloading.

I imagine the recoil must have been considerable. Hard to believe the mounting platform could handle it. I can understand your wanting a long lanyard.

Thanks so much for taking the time to sort this out for me.
 
You are most welcome Steve. Really cool for your neighbour to have a relative in the Prussian Artillery.

Cheers.

Peter
 
Thank you for this interesting post. Also I‘m not interested in weapon technology it was a nice riddle and I learned a lot.
@ Tony: Also you are right that it is better if the answerer knows the correct answer, I think it is a positive example that brainstorming could led to a solution too.
 
pebceb said:
As a Gunner (Lieutenant-Colonel - Royal Canadian Artillery retired) I can't resist jumping in.
Click to expand...
About time. [Insert RCA icon]

Well that is absolutely what it is. A 9 cm Kanone C/79. Excellent! Nicely tracked.

It's not in the European Cartridge Casing data base, as it used bagged charges. Go figure.

Here it is. Very nice catch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_cm_Kanone_C/79

That old bagged cannon is not even close to the technology and punch of the two fixed ammunition cannon with recoil and recuperator, the

Krupp 8,0cm Zug-Flak https://www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/cc19.htm

8,8cm K-Flak L/45 https://www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/cc21.htm

The Flak 18 as the 8,8cm KwK 36 was basically the original cannon mounted in the Tiger I.
 
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