German Imperial Swords

[RON]

Gents, I'm posting pictures of 2 types of swords which have both been described as Imperial Cavalry.
One has a folding basket (where the Prussian eagle sits) and the other doesn't.
From what I've read, double hangers stopped being used after 1905 but that's all I know thus far.
Q.1: Are both these swords M89? And why the presence/absence of the folding option?
Q.2: Were these swords used all the way up to the war and are these officer or NCO or both? (how can you tell between Off. & NCO?)
Q.3: Some of these swords had their blades engraved with military & battle or victories-related motifs... Were these engravings done after the swords saw service (e.g. by the veterans) & how could you tell?

FOLDING BASKET:

NON-FOLDING BASKET:

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

These are both M89 Degen. Both are private purchased. How they look depends on what the soldier could afford. So if you had lots of DM you could have a folding guard, engraved blade, etc. Officers absolutlely never wore this pattern of Degen.

Two rings on the nickled scabbard indicates pre-1906, then one ring in 1906. All scabbards were blackened in 1910.

 

[RON]

Hey Tony, wasn't the currency called RM back then?

What were the advantages of having a folding guard?
Were these NCO Cavalry swords only and how different would an officer's degen be (golden instead of silver)?
I'm considering buying the first one (folding guard) but since I'm trying to focus on wartime used militaria; would this qualify? The scabbard seem to have lost most of its blueing or was never blued only heavily rusted?
Too many questions I know...

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Hey Tony, wasn't the currency called RM back then?

Good point. Duh ale:

What were the advantages of having a folding guard?

They fold flat against you and do not clunk into things as you are going about your daily routine. The issued ones are HUGE and would have been constantly smashing into everything.

I'm considering buying the first one (folding guard) but since I'm trying to focus on wartime used militaria; would this qualify?

Sure. Its just not issued.

Were these NCO Cavalry swords only and how different would an officer's degen be (golden instead of silver)?

No, these are not NCO unless you consider a Sgt to be an NCO. But these were carried by Ulan, Husar, Dragoner, all the lowest ranks. An officer's swrod is completely different. It is like the M1859 cavalry sabre. See #13.

 

[Gustaf]

Actually, the currency was just the Mark, it became the Reichsmark and for a short time the Rentenmark after WWI. During the Imperial period, Marks were issued on Reichs Kassenschein, Reichsbanknoten and Darlehenskassenschein.
Best
Gus

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Vindication!

 

[RON]

Little did they know it would end-up called the EURO...

Going back to the swords demystification, if I understood you well Tony, and please correct me again if I'm wrong (another round of questions ):
> The 2 swords I posted above are M1889 Prussian Cavalry Mannschaften private purchase--as opposed to bulkier army issued--sabers?
> But if the issued sabers didn't have the folding option, wouldn't that make the 2nd sword I posted issued (instead of private p.)?
> Are these anywhere in the charts you posted (the closest I see is #7)?
> What would NCO swords look like? Same as the officers'?
> Pre-1906 PRODUCTION doesn't necesarily mean these swords weren't used/worn as is past that date and through the war, right?

 

[Liongules]

Little did they know it would end-up called the EURO...

Going back to the swords demystification, if I understood you well Tony, and please correct me again if I'm wrong (another round of questions ):
> The 2 swords I posted above are M1889 Prussian Cavalry Mannschaften private purchase--as opposed to bulkier army issued--sabers?
> But if the issued sabers didn't have the folding option, wouldn't that make the 2nd sword I posted issued (instead of private p.)?
> Are these anywhere in the charts you posted (the closest I see is #7)?
> What would NCO swords look like? Same as the officers'?
> Pre-1906 PRODUCTION doesn't necesarily mean these swords weren't used/worn as is past that date and through the war, right?

Rony,

Not meaning to answer for Tony, but since I'm here I'll do what I can.

Yes the two swords are M1889 Prussian Cavalry Mannschaften private purchase Degens.

Yes the issued swords didn't have the folding option, but a soldier could still purchase his own private purchase sword without the folding option because it was cheaper than the sword with the folding option.

I'm not as sure about the NCOs, but I believe they used officer pattern swords with an officer's sword knot.

Pre-1906 swords were probably still being carried by someone. You've got Reserve, Landwehr, Landsturm, and retired people being recalled to active duty that used whatever they had available.

I own a 1910 Prussian infantry officer's sword with the black scabbard that was surrendered to my father in WW2 by a Volkssturm officer in command of a town's defenses who was a former Royal Prussian Army officer. He was still carrying his WW1 sword during WW2.

 

[RON]

Thanks for the update and nice to own a sword with a story behind it... I'm the sone of an army colonel myself with lots of military souvenirs I inherited from him.

Now that we've settled most of the issues in this thread--still waiting for a double-check on the NCO sword distinction thoug--I have 2 final questions:
> How could you guys tell private purchase (PP) from army issue (AI) swords by looking at the pictures?
> Some swords had regimental markings/serial numbers on the scabbards and guards; some didn't. Does this have to do with PP vs. AI?

 

[reservist1]

The grip on issue model 89 cavalry swords is retained by two rivets through the sides of the grip. The grips of private purchase swords have no retainers through the side of the grip.



Reservist1

 

[RON]

Thanks R1 but was that all the difference? What about the models with wired grips; how would they have rivets there for issued models?

And what about the regimental markings or serial numbers (I see some on your scabbard), were these a feature exclusive to issued swords too?

Last but not least, in terms of value today; which would be considered more valuable for collectors to have: An issued or private purchase sword (all else being equal)?

 

[reservist1]

The only sword you pictured was a private purchase Model 89 cavalry sword. Due to the riveted grip on issue versions, that model is very easy to distinguish as issue or private purchase. As for other swords, it may not be possible to determine issue/private purchase from a photo.

The following may help

1. Issue swords have inspectors marks on their component parts.
2. Issue swords have a crowned initial and two digit date on the blade spine.
3. Issue swords are very heavy consctruction, particularly the blades as they are intended to be weapons.
4. The vast majority of private purchase swords are flimsy and were only intended for dress purposes. Taking one of these into combat would be tantamount to taking a butter knife to a knife fight.
5. Issue swords do not have engraved blades.
6. Issue swords do not have folding guards.
7. Issue swords may have unit property markings if they were issued prior to war time directives that eliminated the requirement for property marking.
8. Private purchase swords are generally not unit marked. However, unit marks can appear on some private purchase swords if the owner placed his sword in the unit armory for storage after a wartime directive was published ordering that swords no longer be worn. Swords were to be replaced by firearms (pistols/revolvers). The owners of private purchase swords were given the option of sending them home or placing the swords in unit armories. Sometimes these stored personal swords were unit makred, sometimes not.

As to desirability/value, that is largely a matter of personal preference. However, issue swords are generally far more desirable than similar private purchase items.

Reservist1

 

[RON]

Thanks for the details R1. You might want to check the only Imperial Sword currently in my possession under 'Latest Find' and let me know what you think (another set of questions there!.

I think this beautifully concludes my German Imperial Swords 101 crash initiation... Many thanks to all who contributed; it's been a very nice ride as always on this Forum. :thumb up:

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

Ron- just like helmets, there are tons of great referance books out there on swords. Tom Johnson has a 3 or 4 volume set on Imperial swords, also a Great book by Angolia on Imperial swords. And Wittmann and Johnson teamed up years ago for a Imperial sword referance book.

I have in my possesion a rare set of books callled Blank waffen which has numerous volumes and shows Imperial swords from way back up until the Third Recih period, there are simply tons of variations of swords made in this period.

it is what got me started in this hobby before I jumped over to Pickelhauben.

James

 

[RON]

Hey James, collecting has become such an expensive & often overpriced hobby one does need to focus and specialize...
As a kid, I started off collecting stamps & coins which got me to like history and anything related to pre-Cold War Germany. Then I went on to collecting stamps + coins + German WW2 militaria... Nowadays I'm fascinated by Imperial Germany--not that I wasn't before but I always thought ww2 would be more 'affordable'.
So now I'm just trying to collect whatever I find that has to do with ww1 German headgear and weapons (+ mailed postcards).
Still need to focus more though otherwise I'll soon be selling organs of mine to sustain myself.

 

[Gustaf]

Ebay used to be a great place to sell organs before they banned it, I sold three of my kedneys there,
Collecting is a terminal disease, there is no cure, only treatment, buy two Pickelhauben and call me in the morning.
Best
Gus

 

[Larmo]

collecting is a constant learning process, seems I learn something new everyday, course I need to as I forget a lot.

I have in my possesion a rare set of books callled Blank waffen

Sounds like a great set of books James, did anyone ever do a reprint? Do they also cover faschinenmesser?

Cheers

Larry

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

Larry- these are simply the best publications I ever have found on Prussian swords and bayonets. Literly talks about swords from 1700's up to WWI. Only problems is it is all in German and there is no index!!

I picked up this set around 20 years ago when I was into swords, I have never seen another set?? It ran me a few hundred $'s back then!

8 volumes all loose leaf 4 ring binder bound, each volume in the 150 to 200 page range. Printed in Germany in 1976

PREUSSISCHE BLANKWAFFEN by Gerd Maier

Shows diagrams of all types of swords and bayonets as well as measurements etc.

Yes, there are several pages on faschinenmesser.

Please PM me and give me your e-mail, I will scan the pages for you!

here are some sample pictures

James

 

[RON]

James: Can you please scan ALL volumes and email to me? :lol:
Gus: So how many kidneys are you left with now? 8)

 

[Khukri]

This is absolutely fabulous 'Cold Steel' stuff !

Must be worth a fortune by now !

Francis