This is why we don’t marry our cousins anymore…..
Gren Nr 3 with flaming rosettes
- Thread starter Amybellars
- Start date
Hello to everybody,
I think I can show you another variant of the helmet plate for DR3.
I have bought it from France time ago. When I asked the seller if he knew something about the history of this plate he wrote me : „Hello, i have a friend who is a farmer near gravelotte (Gorze) he found the eagle in his woods, and i bought him. Best regards“
It is made of nickel-silver with tough patina. The scepter is 10 cm long and the high from central feather to crown is 12 cm.
I believe it could be an earlier model from the period of 1866, 1870-71 wars.
The same helmet plate could be seen on „Der Rittmeister“ web – time ago.
Your opinion, please.
I think I can show you another variant of the helmet plate for DR3.
I have bought it from France time ago. When I asked the seller if he knew something about the history of this plate he wrote me : „Hello, i have a friend who is a farmer near gravelotte (Gorze) he found the eagle in his woods, and i bought him. Best regards“
It is made of nickel-silver with tough patina. The scepter is 10 cm long and the high from central feather to crown is 12 cm.
I believe it could be an earlier model from the period of 1866, 1870-71 wars.
The same helmet plate could be seen on „Der Rittmeister“ web – time ago.
Your opinion, please.
KIR145
Well-known member
Hello, in my opinion a Garde-Adler without a star (the "arcanthus-sceptre-variation"), see the following posts:
>https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/officer-helme-kir-145.14301/#post-96684
>https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/a-real-garde-adler-ohne-stern.19585/#post-147333
Your emblem has an arcanthus flower on the sceptre and not a small eagle - so it is not a silver DR3 emblem.
But anyway a nice eagle!
Best regards, Jensp.s.: I think your emblem might be from the Königs-Inf.-Rgts. No. 145 from Metz,
that's only 17 kilometers/12 miles away from where the emblem was found.
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Thank you for your response. I have looked and read the threads you recommended me, but I am quite confused of it. There are helmet plates of EM KIR No 145 with combination sceptre with acantus and “S” shaped sword or plates for Off. with cross guard sword and sceptre with “chicken on the stick”
I can´t prove that it is nickle-silver plate-I don´t want to damage the patina. There are but another differences:
I have compared helmet plate for EM Line Grenadiers/ after they dropped the FWR design-it was nearly the same time when the KIR 145 has got new “guard eagle”/ and the length of the sceptre is 8cm to 10cm of the discussed one. The weight of Line Grenadier is 45g to weight 68g of the “unknown” one. It´s 1,5 times heavier!
You wrote :
"Your emblem has an arcanthus flower on the sceptre and not a small eagle - so it is not a silver DR3 emblem."
See this link : https://garystockbridge617.getarchive.net/amp/media/kask-detaljer-livrustkammaren-56684-acbaa7
Don´t lose a patience with me, please
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
JensHello, in my opinion a Garde-Adler without a star (the "arcanthus-sceptre-variation"), see the following posts:
>https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/officer-helme-kir-145.14301/#post-96684
>https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/a-real-garde-adler-ohne-stern.19585/#post-147333
Your emblem has an arcanthus flower on the sceptre and not a small eagle - so it is not a silver DR3 emblem.
But anyway a nice eagle!
p.s.: I think your emblem might be from the Königs-Inf.-Rgts. No. 145 from Metz,
that's only 17 kilometers/12 miles away from where the emblem was found.
Good post
What reference is that photo of the Probe eagle from ?
Thanks
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Not to repeat these photos too many times
but here is what I consider to be the 100% correct
front plates for officers helmets of
D R 3 / Grenadier zu Pferde Regt 3 is silver
KIR145 is gilt
both have the small eagle
enlisted helmets especially for KIR145 I have seen
with Grenadier wide winged eagle front plates
that I consider correct
Steve
but here is what I consider to be the 100% correct
front plates for officers helmets of
D R 3 / Grenadier zu Pferde Regt 3 is silver
KIR145 is gilt
both have the small eagle
enlisted helmets especially for KIR145 I have seen
with Grenadier wide winged eagle front plates
that I consider correct
Steve
GardeUlan
Well-known member
Very nice helmet! It’s from Gustav V from Sweden. Probably original
Kask till uniform för chefen för "Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3"
Kask till uniform för chefen för "Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3".
Kask av svart läder med försilvrade beslag. Hållaren för ståndaren med ventilationshål samt med fyrpassformig fotplatta med nitar i form av förgyllda, åttuddiga stjärnor. Hakrem av läder , belagd med förgyllda mässingsfjäll. Vid båda fästena knapp i form av försilvrad granat ? samt på v. sida...
They have even more pieces from him in Stockholm. “Vapenrock“and so on.
Vapenrock för Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3
Vapenrock av blått kläde med krage av rött kläde. I kragen svart sidenklaff och snedställd hälla samt tre häkten. Utefter framkanten en röd klädespasspoal.
samlingar.shm.se
Best wishes,
GardeUlan
Sandmann
Well-known member
I fully agree. This topic was discussed for a long time within the German Society for Army Science. In the end, it was agreed that if the reigning foreign monarch was the head of a regiment, and even epaulettes with his initials were introduced in his honor, then he would probably wear the correct eagle on his helmet to avoid an international faux-pas. And this is what happened with King Gustav V of Sweden with his DR No. 3 (Grenadier-to-Horse Regiment - Baron von Derfflinger - No. 3), who wore a helmet eagle with a guard eagle sword and acanthus flower cone.Very nice helmet! It’s from Gustav V from Sweden. Probably original
Kask till uniform för chefen för "Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3"
Kask till uniform för chefen för "Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3".
Kask av svart läder med försilvrade beslag. Hållaren för ståndaren med ventilationshål samt med fyrpassformig fotplatta med nitar i form av förgyllda, åttuddiga stjärnor. Hakrem av läder , belagd med förgyllda mässingsfjäll. Vid båda fästena knapp i form av försilvrad granat ? samt på v. sida...www.europeana.eu
They have even more pieces from him in Stockholm. “Vapenrock“and so on.
Vapenrock för Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3
Vapenrock av blått kläde med krage av rött kläde. I kragen svart sidenklaff och snedställd hälla samt tre häkten. Utefter framkanten en röd klädespasspoal.
Best wishes,
GardeUlan
KIR145
Well-known member
Hello, perhaps I should have formulated it more clearly - sorry, but English is not my native language and also I overlooked some important details.
What I actually I can say is that your emblem does not correspond to the official specifications for the DR3.
This is also shown by the sample of March 22, 1897. The shorter sword (which does not reach into the bandeau) is also not according to the sample.
The helmet you show is from the armory of the then King Gustav V of Sweden, so this helmet emblem is also not like the official sample.
There was also an article about (as Sandmann already wrote), but it was not clarified why this was the case with this helmet of the King of Sweden.
It seems that there were always countless differences in the design and details of helmet emblems that can no longer be clarified today - so sometimes many things are possible. Like this example (also with short sword, but with an eagle on the scepter): See Picture-Link
Also it is difficult to know what emblems the officers and what emblems enlisted men had.
The color of your emblem cannot be clearly identified for me from the pictures (also because of the patina).
But now I also think that your emblem was/is rather not golden/brass colors.
And the short sword does not fit for an IR145-emblem - so I have to say that you are right!
Sorry - mea culpa! Best regards, Jens
Best regards, Jens
Attached is another variant (in brass), note the thicker body & shorter tail feathers and the raised beak. (maybe DR1 ???)
What I actually I can say is that your emblem does not correspond to the official specifications for the DR3.
This is also shown by the sample of March 22, 1897. The shorter sword (which does not reach into the bandeau) is also not according to the sample.
The helmet you show is from the armory of the then King Gustav V of Sweden, so this helmet emblem is also not like the official sample.
There was also an article about (as Sandmann already wrote), but it was not clarified why this was the case with this helmet of the King of Sweden.
It seems that there were always countless differences in the design and details of helmet emblems that can no longer be clarified today - so sometimes many things are possible. Like this example (also with short sword, but with an eagle on the scepter): See Picture-Link
Also it is difficult to know what emblems the officers and what emblems enlisted men had.
The color of your emblem cannot be clearly identified for me from the pictures (also because of the patina).
But now I also think that your emblem was/is rather not golden/brass colors.
And the short sword does not fit for an IR145-emblem - so I have to say that you are right!
Sorry - mea culpa! Best regards, JensSteve, unfortunately I can't remember exactly, I suspect it's a scan from some brochure from the military museum in Rastatt (???).
Best regards, JensAttached is another variant (in brass), note the thicker body & shorter tail feathers and the raised beak. (maybe DR1 ???)
Attachments
Last edited:
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
That is one killer of a WaffenrockVery nice helmet! It’s from Gustav V from Sweden. Probably original
Kask till uniform för chefen för "Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3"
Kask till uniform för chefen för "Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3".
Kask av svart läder med försilvrade beslag. Hållaren för ståndaren med ventilationshål samt med fyrpassformig fotplatta med nitar i form av förgyllda, åttuddiga stjärnor. Hakrem av läder , belagd med förgyllda mässingsfjäll. Vid båda fästena knapp i form av försilvrad granat ? samt på v. sida...
They have even more pieces from him in Stockholm. “Vapenrock“and so on.
Vapenrock för Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Freiherr von Derfflinger No 3
Vapenrock av blått kläde med krage av rött kläde. I kragen svart sidenklaff och snedställd hälla samt tre häkten. Utefter framkanten en röd klädespasspoal.
Best wishes,
GardeUlan
I wonder where the epaulettes and shoulder straps are ?
Thanks for the post
Steve
KIR145
Well-known member
... you mean this picture with the brass emblem for officers: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/attachments/adlerevtldr1-jpg.52176/
Yes - there is an arcanthus flower on the sceptre with a long sword (up to the bandeau).
But the tail feathers are shorter, the body slightly thicker and the beak is pointing upwards.
I think it might be (in brass) from the DR1 - but I'm not sure. I don't know enough about the cavalry!
Best regards, Jens
GardeUlan
Well-known member
Thank you very much for this! Very helpful!Hello, perhaps I should have formulated it more clearly - sorry, but English is not my native language and also I overlooked some important details.
What I actually I can say is that your emblem does not correspond to the official specifications for the DR3.
This is also shown by the sample of March 22, 1897. The shorter sword (which does not reach into the bandeau) is also not according to the sample.
The helmet you show is from the armory of the then King Gustav V of Sweden, so this helmet emblem is also not like the official sample.
There was also an article about (as Sandmann already wrote), but it was not clarified why this was the case with this helmet of the King of Sweden.
It seems that there were always countless differences in the design and details of helmet emblems that can no longer be clarified today - so sometimes many things are possible. Like this example (also with short sword, but with an eagle on the scepter): See Picture-Link
Also it is difficult to know what emblems the officers and what emblems enlisted men had.
The color of your emblem cannot be clearly identified for me from the pictures (also because of the patina).
But now I also think that your emblem was/is rather not golden/brass colors.
And the short sword does not fit for an IR145-emblem - so I have to say that you are right!
Steve, unfortunately I can't remember exactly, I suspect it's a scan from some brochure from the military museum in Rastatt (???).
Attached is another variant (in brass), note the thicker body & shorter tail feathers and the raised beak. (maybe DR1 ???)
Best wishes
GardeUlan
