GRFP 1901 Douamont 1916
- Thread starter b.loree
- Start date
argonne
Well-known member
Hi Steve,,
You are exactly pointing what I mean. To my humble understanding, GRKF is for Grenadier (or Garde) Regiment Kaiser Franz...
And I do not believe it could be the GR12, because this regiment only adopted the big Grenadier eagle on the 16.06.1913. Before that date, all helmets of this regiment wore the classic line eagle with FWR. And the distance between the loops for that Wappen was much smaller. Older helmets that later have received the new eagle, shortly before the war have not been repunched. No, the loops on the back of the new big Grenadier eagle have been soldered wth less space to adapt perfectly the Wappen to the existing holes in the shell. Only the brand new helmets lately produced 1913 and 1914 are showing such more spaced holes on the shell to receive the new eagle with wide placed loops. And remember in this special case: the neckguard of this helmet is showing the first regimentation of the year 1901.
I am also thinking that the Wappen maybe not belongs to this helmet. But that´s only my two cents...
Philippe
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argonne
Well-known member
Otherwise, the Regimentsgeschichte of the GR12 (page 78) is absolutely advocating fo a helmet of the 8/GR12. This special company together with the 5/GR12 fought on the 28.2.1916 between the Fort Douaumont and the village Douaumont and could conquer the Werk 613, a fortified position occupied by the French...And as we know, at this 1916 early period, the M95 were still worn in the font lines!
That´s why I would have like to see the markings...They maybe are Grenadier Regiment Karl (von) Preussen (GRKP)
Please Brian, could you check? And maybe also the area behind the Wappen if you can see old traces of refilled holes?
And I also checked...The KFR (GGR2) never was in the area of Verdun......
Maybe this helmet has been joined together shortly before the war with a new shell and old neckguard. That could be the clue to explain the spaced holes in the shell for a 1901 marked helmet.
It seems that GR12 had some problems to equip its companies with helmets wearing the new big new Grenadier eagle.
I am owning a regimentally marked and owner named LGR8 helmet (brother regiment of the GR12, same garrison of Frankfurt /Oder) that was "rented" for a short time before the war to the GR12 (for parades, guards, ceremonies?), also marked 2(brandenburgisches)GR12. At the mobilization, it was returned to the LGR8:
Philippe
That´s why I would have like to see the markings...They maybe are Grenadier Regiment Karl (von) Preussen (GRKP)
Please Brian, could you check? And maybe also the area behind the Wappen if you can see old traces of refilled holes?
And I also checked...The KFR (GGR2) never was in the area of Verdun......
Maybe this helmet has been joined together shortly before the war with a new shell and old neckguard. That could be the clue to explain the spaced holes in the shell for a 1901 marked helmet.
It seems that GR12 had some problems to equip its companies with helmets wearing the new big new Grenadier eagle.
I am owning a regimentally marked and owner named LGR8 helmet (brother regiment of the GR12, same garrison of Frankfurt /Oder) that was "rented" for a short time before the war to the GR12 (for parades, guards, ceremonies?), also marked 2(brandenburgisches)GR12. At the mobilization, it was returned to the LGR8:
Philippe
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KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Philippe
I think that you are correct. I think that the helmet is Kaiser Franz Garde Grenadier Regt 2
I think that the Grenadier eagle does not belong on the helmet
I think that the helmet needs a Prussian Garde eagle
Steve
With the help of my granddaughter I took some wappen/helmet photos this afternoon which will aid in this discussion.
The wappen holes were definitely punched for the standard Prussian eagle....7.5cm or 3". There are no extra holes.
The wappen loops have been soldered closer together to fit these standard holes.
From my wappen collectiuon...GRKW1 with the customary wider soldered loops.
Thanks again Steve for selling this prime example!
Colberg Grenadier Regt. No. 9 with soldered loops intended for the standard Prussian helmet.
Again purchased from Steve several years ago. Both of these are beautiful OR examples! Comments?
The wappen holes were definitely punched for the standard Prussian eagle....7.5cm or 3". There are no extra holes.
The wappen loops have been soldered closer together to fit these standard holes.
From my wappen collectiuon...GRKW1 with the customary wider soldered loops.
Thanks again Steve for selling this prime example!
Colberg Grenadier Regt. No. 9 with soldered loops intended for the standard Prussian helmet.
Again purchased from Steve several years ago. Both of these are beautiful OR examples! Comments?
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
To my mind, the wappen is original to this helmet. As has been mentioned, those Regts issued with the new Grenadier style wappen did not replace their helmets. The new issued wappen simply had soldered loops which fit the standard infantry grommet holes. Sorry Steve, I enjoy them too much! 
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
BrianTo my mind, the wappen is original to this helmet. As has been mentioned, those Regts issued with the new Grenadier style wappen did not replace their helmets. The new issued wappen simply had soldered loops which fit the standard infantry grommet holes. Sorry Steve, I enjoy them too much!
However, the regiment Kammer does not indicate that it is a Grenadier Regt
that's what I think
'and I believe Philippe thanks also if I read his post correctly
Steve
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Brian
To me GRKF stands for " G " Garde ( or Garde Grenadier ) ; "R" Regiment ; "K" is for Kaiser ; "F" is for Franz
As far as I know there is no Grenadier Regt that would have an "F" in their Kammer
1901 the Garde Grenadiers sure had their wide winged Garde eagle front plates
Steve
argonne
Well-known member
Gentlemen, as I already wrore: Maybe the stamp is not GRFK but GRFP, the last letter being a P and not a F, for Grenadier Regiment Franz von Preußen" (Nr12).
Then it would make sense for the GR12, because as I wrote above, the 8th company of the GR12 foúght between Fort Douaumont and Douaumont village on the 28 Februar 1916, at the Werk 613.
Philippe
Then it would make sense for the GR12, because as I wrote above, the 8th company of the GR12 foúght between Fort Douaumont and Douaumont village on the 28 Februar 1916, at the Werk 613.
Philippe
Thanks for the clarification Philippe and your patience! I think that you are right. The so called "F" is the faintest part of the marking and could very well be a "P". Obviously, there is only one slight difference in these capital letters. The right hand marking also shows 1913 and 8C within a rectangular "box" which fits with your research. I think that you have "nailed it" Philippe...GRFP 12. Now all I have to do is find a way to restore this piece!
I think that you are right. The so called "F" is the faintest part of the marking and could very well be a "P". Obviously, there is only one slight difference in these capital letters. The right hand marking also shows 1913 and 8C within a rectangular "box" which fits with your research. I think that you have "nailed it" Philippe...GRFP 12. Now all I have to do is find a way to restore this piece!
John Josef
Well-known member
Just to play devil's advocate what if the Douaumont 1916 was added much later with a handheld engraving tool to increase the sale value?
I'm not saying it was but would like to learn about these types of engravings on helmets and see other examples to learn how you date them. Maybe someone can start a thread showing some from their collections or ones that have been known in the past.
I've become good at distinguishing fake engravings on the back of Iron Crosses which there are tons now. Most are pretty easy to distinguish from a master's hand tooled work from the time and are being done with an electric hand tool of current times.
I'm not saying it was but would like to learn about these types of engravings on helmets and see other examples to learn how you date them. Maybe someone can start a thread showing some from their collections or ones that have been known in the past.
I've become good at distinguishing fake engravings on the back of Iron Crosses which there are tons now. Most are pretty easy to distinguish from a master's hand tooled work from the time and are being done with an electric hand tool of current times.
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
Philippe
For what it is worth I have 2 helmets from G R 12
One is the old "FWR " plate with Kammer and dated 1906
the other is the "new " wide winged eagle so it must be
after 16 June 1913 .It is also Kammer issue . I see G R 12 as Kammer stamp
there is one other stamp on the 1906 helmet
I am not sure that I see it properly to read it
Steve
argonne
Well-known member
Steve,
We have here the third bataillon of the Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 12 (of course prussian), formed in Berlin at the mobilization.
Both other Bataillons were formed in the NW of Berlin (Perleberg / Brandenburg) and the SO of Berlin (Calau / Brandenburg).
Note that the commander of the II/RJR12 was an active officer of the GR12.
Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 12 (+MG.-Kp.)
Aufgestellt in Calau (I.), Perleberg (II.) und Berlin (R.Stb., III.)
Unterstellung: 5. Res.Div.
Kommandeur: Oberstleutnant Kotze (Waffen-Inspektion im
Kriegsministerium)
I.: Major Kleemann (Kriegsschule Engers)
II.: Major Lueder (Gren.R.Nr. 12)
III.: Major Hassel (I.R.Nr. 131) gef.: 29.9.14
Philippe
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
This is fascinating to me. Am so thankful Brian that you took on this restoration for me. As a new comer to this community; I am nothing but impressed by the knowledge and passion of all!