Help identifying two 19thC headgear: one English, one French

Bungo

Bungo

Member
Hi all,

Is anyone able to assist me in identifying the attached headgear? A friend has pointed out to me that these may be coming up for sale soon, and if the price was right I'd be interested.

Here are my ill-educated guesses:

The one on the right is an artillery helmet from the Oxfordshire Light Infantry, ca. 1881-1908. (Does Light Infantry even have attached artillery??? Otherwise, why the round at top rather than spike?)

The one on the left is French, I think 2nd Empire, but I'm really stumped from there...

Any ideas what a reasonable price would be to pay for each of these?

Thanks, fellow pickelhaubers!

Bungo
 
Hi Bungo

I'll try to weigh-in a bit on your French shako. I looks to be that of a Garde Nationale officer (militia), 34th battalion, circa mid 1850's. The main clue is the eagle, it looks to the left, where the eagles on regular line regiments look right. Also, yours sits on a spray of branches where line regiments have lightening bolts to rest upon. Where it gets a little difficult to tell without having it in hand is whether or not it is missing a chinstrap, it does need a pompom for certain. There was a time when no chinstraps or chinscales where worn. You'll have to see if there is any evidence of a set once being worn with the shako. If it needs a set of straps or scales, a good source is ebay France. Search using the word shako, refine it to the militaria category (to filter out all of the fashion hairy boots and marching band hats), and pompoms and original replacement parts can be found there frequently. As far as value is concerned, hard to say without holding it. However it does appear to have issues with the gold brocade trim at its top, it needs a pompom and maybe a chinstrap, what's the lining like? another question. My guesstimation would be about $300-400 as-is. Complete examples are in the $500-700 range.

Cheers Bungo, good luck, they're cool old things... :thumb up:

Larmo
 
The British helmets is an 1878 pattern Home Service Helmet features the 1881 pattern badge of the The Oxfordshire Light Infantry. Other Ranks pattern helmet features a more simple design than the private purchase officer's helmets, but still maintains the basic shape. The front is more rounded than pointed, and lacks the brass trim. This example lacks the chinchain it appears.

The helmet should have a spike, not a ball - as the ball would be for artillery. The helmet is pre-1901, as it has the Imperial crown. This was changed to the King's Crown with the death of Queen Victoria. So it is a Victorian example for sure.

The regiment was formed as a consequence of Childers reforms of the armed forces, a continuation of the Cardwell reforms, by the amalgamation of the 43rd (Monmouthshire) Regiment of Foot (Light Infantry) and the 52nd (Oxfordshire) Regiment of Foot (Light Infantry), forming the 1st and 2nd Battalions, The Oxfordshire Light Infantry on 1 July 1881. Later, in 1908 the regiment's title was altered to become the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, commonly shortened to the 'Ox and Bucks'.
 
I agree with Peter about the home service helmet. It is an OR helmet and it should certainly have a spike if it is to an infantry unit, but check to see if there are extra holes behind the plate, as the ball fitting (which was used by a number of corps) might be original and the Oxfordshire plate might have been added to replace whatever was originally there. My other thought is that the home service helmets to Light Infantry units are called 'green cloths' as they were covered in a very dark green fabric, not always easy to distinguish from the more common blue cloth helmets. This looks very blue on the photo.

As to price, if all was right with it i.e. matching plate and top fitting, no extra holes and chinstrap present, I would think around £150-£200.

Patrick
 
Patrick--
That is a good point to see if the plate had changed. I should add that I have an Oxfordshire Light Infantry Helmet and mine is actually Blue Cloth not Green Cloth. I believe Stuart Bates has an officer's version (my is OR) and his is Blue Cloth. I seem to recall that his unit used Blue Cloth in the Victorian period but I need to clarify.

Cheers,
PS
 
Peter

It's interesting that Stuart's is a blue cloth. There was an Oxfordshire LI officer's on Regimentals the other day which I'm sure was a green cloth. It's no longer there. The 1900 Dress Regs for officers specify green cloth for Light Infantry. This is in para 16, a description of the officer's helmet. It doesn't describe the OR helmet but I would have thought it would be the same.

Regards

Patrick
 
chinstrap said:
It's interesting that Stuart's is a blue cloth. There was an Oxfordshire LI officer's on Regimentals the other day which I'm sure was a green cloth. It's no longer there. The 1900 Dress Regs for officers specify green cloth for Light Infantry. This is in para 16, a description of the officer's helmet. It doesn't describe the OR helmet but I would have thought it would be the same.
Click to expand...

My helmet has the pre-1881 reform badge, and says "HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE" instead of Oxfordshire. I don't know what the pre-1900 dress regs say on the matter either. I'll check and see if Stuart knows.
 
Thanks people. I've passed on my interest to my friend, and now I'll wait to see if the seller is willing to part with these for a reasonable price. I'd be interested in keeping the British one, and the French could be on-sold to fund future pickelhaube acquisitions.

You've gotta love this place, the expert knowledge here truly is extraordinary. Thanks again :D
 
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