HELP NEEDED FOR A LGR 109!!!! PLACE OF REGIMENT STAMP

argonne

argonne

Well-known member
Hi Gentlemen,
A good friend of mine in France has purchased this LGR109 EM Haube for a few days :

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Casque-a-pointe-troupe-Pionniers-109-eme-BADOIS-1895-allemand-prussien-14-18-/121125806218?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=HgAsPbXSOai2mRAg5ps%252FqgLgrAE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now I am thinking this Haube has a lot of questions to be answered #-o My friend got this helmet today with the mail and he is absolutely not sure anymore, if this helmet is a good one or a part helmet. Absolutely impossible to read what the regimental marking on the rear visor is saying....I am thinking maybe something like "LGR 9C" :-k However, all the LGR109 that I saw (included the one I own) always are regimentally stamped on the other side of visor.... Another question: what´s the meaning of the "1" stamped on the other side of back visor??? And at least, the griffin plate is not matching 100% the traces in the leather...It seems there was at some time another plate on this helmet (my friend is thinking another R109 plate) and I am thinking it could even has been a silver garde eagle plate.
My own conclusion: I am thinking that all the elements on this helmet are 100% original, but I am thinking too, that this helmet could have been first an EM garde helmet (GPB, ER1-4, GFR or 5th Garde Regiment zu Fuß) and the griffin was added to it later...
Gents, I would be pleased to hear your opinion. Good or bad?
The seller is offering a full refund on that one.
Philippe
 
Thank you "drewlarge" for your opinion, but I though and hoped this helmet could be larger "discussed" in details there, especially the regimental stamp question.
Does somebody already saw such a regimental stamp on a LGR109 haube, especially at this special place on the rear visor? I am eventually thinking that this stamp could show "LGR" (without the "109")and behind a bataillon/company number or a date.
Maybe there were some 109 helmets whith only a LGR stamp without regiment numbers because of the clear regimental identity given by this special griffin plate. Thats´s the main question I have here in this post! There were only a few LGR with all a special plate (LGR8, LGR100 and LGR109).
I have found another 109 haube on Mr. Malvaux site (but a RIR109 one), which is eventually showing a similar regimental stamp at this special rear visor place. Just have a look:

http://2gm.bertrand-malvaux.com/p/11925/casque-a-pointe-troupe-du-1-badisches-leib-grenadier-reserve-regt-n-109.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here a pict comparison of both helmets stamps:
Although there is a regular classic "R109" stamp at the other side, I think the stamp on the left side is saying: LGR 3B





And to make the thing even more complicated, another pict of a LGR109 sold on ebay for a few months for 2800 EURO :o Sorry, no better picts of the stamp, but here again it is on the other side of visor!!!!


Guys, what are you thinking about that?

Philippe
 
Do I see lines of a banner above the eagle, or is it my imagination having a go?
In that case the helmet could be a Prussian 1st Battalion Grenadier. (1B)
Maybe your friend should try to match a Prussian guard's eagle with the ghostliness on that helmet.
The chin scales are obviously added later, and why is the neck black when ink stamps are used?
Anyway, Drew is right, better suggest your friend to refund before it’s too late, it will be very hard to ever sell this helmet on.
 
Spiker said:
Do I see lines of a banner above the eagle, or is it my imagination having a go?
In that case the helmet could be a Prussian 1st Battalion Grenadier. (1B)
Maybe your friend should try to match a Prussian guard's eagle with the ghostliness on that helmet.
The chin scales are obviously added later, and why is the neck black when ink stamps are used?
Anyway, Drew is right, better suggest your friend to refund before it’s too late, it will be very hard to ever sell this helmet on.
Click to expand...

Ed, that´s a real good observation, and yes, I forgot that the first bataillon of the 1. Garde Regiment z.Fuß also had such silver fittings and such a classic screwable spike!
My friend owns a garde helmet of the 5th Garde Regiment zu Fuß and the plate does not match in the holes of this helmet, so he cannot check exactly the ghostliness.
The space on the 109 plate is 8,5cm and on the garde eagle 9,5cm....On both plates, there are absolutely no evidences of resoldering of the loops.

Philippe
 
Philippe,

Good morning! You always bring such interesting questions and presentations. Between this and Larry's article on the Franco-Prussian war infantry I have had a great distraction and a very enjoyable one from this book. :bravo:

Good question. I do not think there is any significance at all as to which side of the visor the marking is applied to. Similarities in the markings seem to be a function of regimental tradition and the guy putting the stamp on. When that individual changed there are often major changes in the mark. At least that is my supposition based on having looked at one or two of these.

LGR 109 has had some pretty interesting marks. If you look at the listing on my site http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Kammer_Marks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are four pictures – especially the bottom one should be familiar to you!

However the top one comes from my helmet. It looks remarkably like yours in that is not very readable and looks a bit like yours. Notice the black surface. There seem to be a lot of these especially before 1910. Also notice that there is my mark which I believe to be earlier, a 1910 Mark and a 1912 Mark. Perhaps the individual making the marks changed.

One big difference between my helmet and this is that mine has no vent. I just think that dates mine earlier. I cannot comment about whether this was use in a different Regiment however, I really really doubt that the piece of equipment could have been in XIV Corps and the Guarde Corps. Ever thought of the Pioneer Battalion??

Just an opinion but I would not throw this out so quick. All of this comes down to what satisfies the purchaser. What was the motto of the Prussian Guard? – to each his own.
 
Joe's comments make a lot of sense; this hat may be worth exploring further and having ID stamped on one side or the other probably does not mean much. On the other hand your friend may have a hard time re-gaining confidence at this point, and doubt will always persist... we all know the feeling.
Not to mention there are other flaws; clearly, the chinscales do not belong to this helmet...


 
Yes Joe, the helmet of my friend really looks like yours, except the rear vent.Your helmet is a M91 pattern. The one from my friend is a M95.By the way, how many holes do you see under the spike of your helmet? It was very common for the LGR109 M91 pattern to have 6 (!) holes!
My friend also tells me his haube is made of much thicker and heavier leather than all other helmets he is owning.
I also think the possibility of a "Semper Talis" bandeau can be rejected now, because there are absolutely no refilled holes which would be an indication for that. And there is a 3B stamp on the neckguard (third bataillon) that make this impossible too. I think those traces in the leather are resulting from bad storage.
I am now thinking the stamp could mean one of following possibilities, and yes, I am believing that the first letters really are L.G.R.

- L.G.R. UG (Uebung in der Garnison). That would explain the heavy leather, the chinscales and the "1" stamp at the other side of neckguard (Garnitur I).In this case, this helmet could only have been worn for parades, guards or special commemorations in the garrison only.

- L.G.R. 4C. It really seems that the numeral "4" has been later printed in the leather structure over the first ink numeral because of change of Companie/Bataillon at some time. The numeral under the "4" could IMHO only have been a "9" because of to less space in the stamp for the 10th, 11th or 12th companie. That would match with the "3B" stamp (first company of the third bataillon). In this case, this helmet would have changed from the 3B to the 1B.This is my favorite.

Bruno, why are you thinking the chinscales can not belong to this helmet? :oops:
I do think so, for parades and guards in the garrison.

Philippe
 
Bruno, why are you thinking the chinscales can not belong to this helmet? :oops:
I do think so, for parades and guards in the garrison.



Because they are far too long.
 
911car said:
Bruno, why are you thinking the chinscales can not belong to this helmet? :oops:
I do think so, for parades and guards in the garrison.



Because they are far too long.
Click to expand...

Should they mask the bottom of the plate? (Devraient-elles cacher le bas de la plaque?)
Philippe
 

Röchling43 by joerookery, on Flickr

"Festtagswache in Karlsruhe"
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