Help with Shoulder board identification
- Thread starter simon505
- Start date
Chip Minx
New member
Simon,
Well, it's an M15 artillery piece, as you have surmised. If the unit number has not been removed (stitching pulled out), it can only be the Garde FAR Nr.6. The bomb is situated more to the center, which means it is a possible Garde unit. The Garde FAR Nr.4 would have had blue piping. See this article that I wrote many years ago.
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/utah/894/guardstr.htm
Chip
Well, it's an M15 artillery piece, as you have surmised. If the unit number has not been removed (stitching pulled out), it can only be the Garde FAR Nr.6. The bomb is situated more to the center, which means it is a possible Garde unit. The Garde FAR Nr.4 would have had blue piping. See this article that I wrote many years ago.
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/utah/894/guardstr.htm
Chip
Many thanks Chip - normally I've been able to find answers on the net but this one was a challenge.
You must pardon my ignorance - could you explain the concept of the 'Garde' units to me - what made the Garde regiments different to regular field artillery units?
I'm guessing this board is relatively common? (Which is fine as its having been 'there' is more than enough for me)
Thanks again,
Simon
You must pardon my ignorance - could you explain the concept of the 'Garde' units to me - what made the Garde regiments different to regular field artillery units?
I'm guessing this board is relatively common? (Which is fine as its having been 'there' is more than enough for me)
Thanks again,
Simon
Liongules
New member
Simon,
Someone else may do a much better job than I, but basically the Garde regiments were what we'd think of as a royal guard. They were all stationed in and around Berlin. The were considered the most elite regiments where all of the best princes and nobles went to be officers.
Someone else may do a much better job than I, but basically the Garde regiments were what we'd think of as a royal guard. They were all stationed in and around Berlin. The were considered the most elite regiments where all of the best princes and nobles went to be officers.
Chip Minx
New member
Simon,
I would not say a real Garde FAR Nr.6 strap is common. There are other reasons for an artillery strap to have the common bursting bomb and no unit number (other than the one mentioned in my first post). Unissued examples encountered often were just unfinished/unused straps that never progessed far enough to get a unit number applied. Some say that at some point straps were made without specific numbers and therefore the wearer was "unassigned" with the unit number being added at the time of unit assignment. I'm not so sure that I subscribe to that theory, but unnumbered straps were worn that were not necessarily Garde straps. The evidence we have of straps with the unit numbers added later (with the stitching going completely through to the back) adds some credence, but then there are pieces where alternating numbers are sewn through and sewn half way through (not coming through the back side)!
I've not come across any regulations that would explain any of this (but I'm still looking through the AVBs!). So in the end, it is anybody's guess if your piece is really a Garde piece, but normally the position of the bomb on a strap is higher to accomodate the number. I have a similar piece to yours and I am calling mine a Garde piece. :thumbright:
Chip
I would not say a real Garde FAR Nr.6 strap is common. There are other reasons for an artillery strap to have the common bursting bomb and no unit number (other than the one mentioned in my first post). Unissued examples encountered often were just unfinished/unused straps that never progessed far enough to get a unit number applied. Some say that at some point straps were made without specific numbers and therefore the wearer was "unassigned" with the unit number being added at the time of unit assignment. I'm not so sure that I subscribe to that theory, but unnumbered straps were worn that were not necessarily Garde straps. The evidence we have of straps with the unit numbers added later (with the stitching going completely through to the back) adds some credence, but then there are pieces where alternating numbers are sewn through and sewn half way through (not coming through the back side)!
I've not come across any regulations that would explain any of this (but I'm still looking through the AVBs!). So in the end, it is anybody's guess if your piece is really a Garde piece, but normally the position of the bomb on a strap is higher to accomodate the number. I have a similar piece to yours and I am calling mine a Garde piece. :thumbright:
Chip
Many thanks Gents.
I am at least satisfied that the strap is genuine and is not a repro - I trust you'll agree with me on that!
It does appear to have been worn on a tunic as there is a circle around the buttonhole where the red is brighter, highlighting the wear discolouration on the rest of the strap.
Having thought about what Chip said, I do agree that the bomb does seem to be more centred suggesting that this might be a 6 Garde FAR strap. The seller stated in the description that no numbers appeared to have ever been present on the board and he, like me, couldn't ID the exact regiment so who knows.
I can see how shoulderboard collecting can become compulsive - I have about 18, all being as far as I know, pretty common. Out of interest, what are the rarest types?
Cheers again,
Simon
I am at least satisfied that the strap is genuine and is not a repro - I trust you'll agree with me on that!
It does appear to have been worn on a tunic as there is a circle around the buttonhole where the red is brighter, highlighting the wear discolouration on the rest of the strap.
Having thought about what Chip said, I do agree that the bomb does seem to be more centred suggesting that this might be a 6 Garde FAR strap. The seller stated in the description that no numbers appeared to have ever been present on the board and he, like me, couldn't ID the exact regiment so who knows.
I can see how shoulderboard collecting can become compulsive - I have about 18, all being as far as I know, pretty common. Out of interest, what are the rarest types?
Cheers again,
Simon
Chip Minx
New member
Simon,
Rarity can be a relative thing when if comes to the availability of shoulder boards. There are several factors that can effect this. For instance, boards from a regiment that spent most of or the entire war on the Eastern front are not likely to be found in the West. Boards souvenired by Americans would most likely be different from those collected by Australians. Therefore, certain regimental boards that are relatively common in the U.S. might not be seen in other allied countries.
Another factor is unit size. Some units were tiny (the foot artillery "Mast Fernrohr" detachments come to mind with only five members!) This ups the rarity (I have only seen two of these in all my years of collecting).
Other units were short-lived. The field artillery "Nahkampf-Geschütz-Batterie" were formed and disbanded in less than a year. Kavallerie-Schützen-Kommandos were first formed in the spring of 1918, thus having only a short life span.
Certain shoulder boards were only in existence for a short time due to regulation changes. An example of this are the Verkehrstruppen M07 boards. Originally, in 1907 these boards were piped in red, by 1911, the color of the piping was changed to light grey. Then, when piping was officially dropped in January of 1915, this gray piping went away.
There are certainly other factors contributing to scarcity that I have not mentioned.
If you are wondering about specific units, you can get a general picture from the factors mentioned above. For more specifics, I would suggest asking one of the many long-time collectors, who would have a good feel for what is or has been out there.
Best regards,
Chip
Rarity can be a relative thing when if comes to the availability of shoulder boards. There are several factors that can effect this. For instance, boards from a regiment that spent most of or the entire war on the Eastern front are not likely to be found in the West. Boards souvenired by Americans would most likely be different from those collected by Australians. Therefore, certain regimental boards that are relatively common in the U.S. might not be seen in other allied countries.
Another factor is unit size. Some units were tiny (the foot artillery "Mast Fernrohr" detachments come to mind with only five members!) This ups the rarity (I have only seen two of these in all my years of collecting).
Other units were short-lived. The field artillery "Nahkampf-Geschütz-Batterie" were formed and disbanded in less than a year. Kavallerie-Schützen-Kommandos were first formed in the spring of 1918, thus having only a short life span.
Certain shoulder boards were only in existence for a short time due to regulation changes. An example of this are the Verkehrstruppen M07 boards. Originally, in 1907 these boards were piped in red, by 1911, the color of the piping was changed to light grey. Then, when piping was officially dropped in January of 1915, this gray piping went away.
There are certainly other factors contributing to scarcity that I have not mentioned.
If you are wondering about specific units, you can get a general picture from the factors mentioned above. For more specifics, I would suggest asking one of the many long-time collectors, who would have a good feel for what is or has been out there.
Best regards,
Chip
Thanks Chip, interesting stuff.
I had a look at your article on the Before 1919 site about boards.
So just so I understand this right - turning to Foot Artillery, of the three Garde Foot Artillery regiments '1' featured just the cannons, '2' featured the FAS cypher and the small cannons icon and '3' featured the cannon but eventually had white piping added.
So the regular Foot Artillery regiments one, two and three used just the cannon design with a chain-stitched number underneath?
I bet the regular Artillery boys hated the Garde regiments! 'Look at you thinking you're all that with your fancy shoulder boards......'
Simon
I had a look at your article on the Before 1919 site about boards.
So just so I understand this right - turning to Foot Artillery, of the three Garde Foot Artillery regiments '1' featured just the cannons, '2' featured the FAS cypher and the small cannons icon and '3' featured the cannon but eventually had white piping added.
So the regular Foot Artillery regiments one, two and three used just the cannon design with a chain-stitched number underneath?
I bet the regular Artillery boys hated the Garde regiments! 'Look at you thinking you're all that with your fancy shoulder boards......'
Simon
What a great collection of straps - the manufacturing/quality variations can be quite striking.
Below are some links to some interesting straps.
From the top: The first is from the Canadian War Memorial's collection and is an example of a standard artillery strap with grenade which appears to have had random metal numerals attached.
The second is from the Australian War Memorial's inventory and shows a pair of straps that appear to have been 'recycled' having a numeral added in different stitching at a later date.
The third is also from the AWM collection, liberated in 1918 and is a plain (?) foot artillery board.
You can see that the teutonic mindset was beginning to waver and standards starting to slip!
Simon
http://collections.civilization.ca/public/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=1100377
http://cas.awm.gov.au/PROD/cas_search_pkg.pr_simple_search
http://cas.awm.gov.au/PROD/cas_search_pkg.pr_simple_search
Below are some links to some interesting straps.
From the top: The first is from the Canadian War Memorial's collection and is an example of a standard artillery strap with grenade which appears to have had random metal numerals attached.
The second is from the Australian War Memorial's inventory and shows a pair of straps that appear to have been 'recycled' having a numeral added in different stitching at a later date.
The third is also from the AWM collection, liberated in 1918 and is a plain (?) foot artillery board.
You can see that the teutonic mindset was beginning to waver and standards starting to slip!
Simon
http://collections.civilization.ca/public/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=1100377
http://cas.awm.gov.au/PROD/cas_search_pkg.pr_simple_search
http://cas.awm.gov.au/PROD/cas_search_pkg.pr_simple_search
-dick rowback
New member
Chip; Wonderful collection of artillery boards and great explanation of how to ID them. =P~ Dick
Chip Minx
New member
Simon,
The first strap you showed in your link is one for Reserve FARs. All patterns of FAR straps are seen with these numbers. This unit, for instance, is the Res.FAR Nr.63. I have attached a picture of some of my examples. This was only for the field artillery.
I could not open your Australian War Memorial links.
Dick,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. One of the Garde Fußart.Rgt.Nr.1 straps in the photo is one my grandfather sent home in a letter, describing how he had gotten it in Stenay, France. That was the start of my shoulder strap collecting back in 1961. Over 800 straps later, I am still trying to complete sets and find examples.
Chip
The first strap you showed in your link is one for Reserve FARs. All patterns of FAR straps are seen with these numbers. This unit, for instance, is the Res.FAR Nr.63. I have attached a picture of some of my examples. This was only for the field artillery.
I could not open your Australian War Memorial links.
Dick,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. One of the Garde Fußart.Rgt.Nr.1 straps in the photo is one my grandfather sent home in a letter, describing how he had gotten it in Stenay, France. That was the start of my shoulder strap collecting back in 1961. Over 800 straps later, I am still trying to complete sets and find examples.
Chip
-dick rowback
New member
Chip; Its the history behind the shoulder board, helmet or what ever that makes it all worth while! Great story, thanks for sharing. I don't see many boards for sale and when I do they are bought up very fast. Dick
Chip Minx
New member
Dick,
I agree with your comment about the history, but unfortunately most of the history behind a shoulder strap is lost once it is removed from the tunic. Of all my straps I probably have less than five pieces that I know who the soldier was that wore them. Of course, you can research the various units and that helps bring the artifacts more to life. For instance, I have a strap from the Prussian 24th infantry regiment. It was men from this unit that were the first to reach Ft.Douaumont.
Chip
I agree with your comment about the history, but unfortunately most of the history behind a shoulder strap is lost once it is removed from the tunic. Of all my straps I probably have less than five pieces that I know who the soldier was that wore them. Of course, you can research the various units and that helps bring the artifacts more to life. For instance, I have a strap from the Prussian 24th infantry regiment. It was men from this unit that were the first to reach Ft.Douaumont.
Chip
Hi Gents,
Thanks for the replies - I've been away on holiday so my apologies for the delay in replying.
Unfortunately, unlike Chip, I don't have the personal link to any of my boards. I am 99% certain that my great grandfather who fought in Flanders in 1915 bought a Hate Belt home but this went to a charity shop in the 1970s. If only I knew then!!!
As I'm trying to clear up a few areas regarding my shoulder boards, I wonder if any one can set me straight on the states that the following regiments originated from. I'm trying to match the correct buttons to my boards and finding it a bit difficult.
So far I need to know which states the following regiments would have been drawn from- to the right is what I understand a few of them to be;
8th Infantry Regiment – Bavarian
27 Infantry Regiment -
170 Infantry Regiment-
47th Infantry Regiment -
153rd Infantry Regiment -
454 Infantry Regiment -
457 Infantry Regiment -
6th Guard Field Artillery - Prussian
30 Foot Artillery -
Any help would be most appreciated!
Cheers to all Simon
Ps Chip - Do you know how your relative came across the boards?
Thanks for the replies - I've been away on holiday so my apologies for the delay in replying.
Unfortunately, unlike Chip, I don't have the personal link to any of my boards. I am 99% certain that my great grandfather who fought in Flanders in 1915 bought a Hate Belt home but this went to a charity shop in the 1970s. If only I knew then!!!
As I'm trying to clear up a few areas regarding my shoulder boards, I wonder if any one can set me straight on the states that the following regiments originated from. I'm trying to match the correct buttons to my boards and finding it a bit difficult.
So far I need to know which states the following regiments would have been drawn from- to the right is what I understand a few of them to be;
8th Infantry Regiment – Bavarian
27 Infantry Regiment -
170 Infantry Regiment-
47th Infantry Regiment -
153rd Infantry Regiment -
454 Infantry Regiment -
457 Infantry Regiment -
6th Guard Field Artillery - Prussian
30 Foot Artillery -
Any help would be most appreciated!
Cheers to all Simon
Ps Chip - Do you know how your relative came across the boards?
joerookery
Well-known member
Simon,
Love it when people start asking about regiments--- it means you're being bitten by the bug bad.
:bravo:
Before I turn to the units. Let me put a plug in for reference books. Below is a picture of one page from Jim Turinetti's book which is still available.
http://www.pickelhauben.net/books/Turinetti.html
This is not the only book available, but there is a lot of information crammed into a small place, broken down by Regiment. I think you can buy this for less than a shoulder strap. Other people have more favorite books, and every single book has mistakes in it. But they are the springboard to further research! :study: :study:
As you can see from the picture. JR 170 was originally from Baden.
the 400 series infantry regiments were later war developed and I believe these two were from Prussia.
JR 47 was from Prussia, but more specifically, the province of Posen having many German citizens who spoke Polish.
JR 27 -- Prussia.
JR 153 -- Saxe Altenburg.
Foot artillery regiments before the war went up to 20. I am not sure about number 30 without looking it up.
Great to meet chasing these things! :smilebox: :smilebox:
Love it when people start asking about regiments--- it means you're being bitten by the bug bad.
:bravo:
Before I turn to the units. Let me put a plug in for reference books. Below is a picture of one page from Jim Turinetti's book which is still available.
http://www.pickelhauben.net/books/Turinetti.html
This is not the only book available, but there is a lot of information crammed into a small place, broken down by Regiment. I think you can buy this for less than a shoulder strap. Other people have more favorite books, and every single book has mistakes in it. But they are the springboard to further research! :study: :study:
As you can see from the picture. JR 170 was originally from Baden.
the 400 series infantry regiments were later war developed and I believe these two were from Prussia.
JR 47 was from Prussia, but more specifically, the province of Posen having many German citizens who spoke Polish.
JR 27 -- Prussia.
JR 153 -- Saxe Altenburg.
Foot artillery regiments before the war went up to 20. I am not sure about number 30 without looking it up.
Great to meet chasing these things! :smilebox: :smilebox:
Chip Minx
New member
Simon,
The Garde Fußartillerie Rgt.Nr.1 strap that I found in one of my grandfather's letters was unidentified. His comment in the letter was that he removed it from a German soldier, who could do nothing about it. I assume the German was a prisoner or a casualty. When I asked him about it some sixty years after the event, he could not remember the circumstances.
Chip
The Garde Fußartillerie Rgt.Nr.1 strap that I found in one of my grandfather's letters was unidentified. His comment in the letter was that he removed it from a German soldier, who could do nothing about it. I assume the German was a prisoner or a casualty. When I asked him about it some sixty years after the event, he could not remember the circumstances.
Chip
Cheers Joe that was really helpful - I'll definitely be looking into getting hold of that book. It is safe to say I have been well and truly bitten - I remember seeing this display of captured German boards from all the different corps and regiments at the Imperial War Museum in London years ago and I think that that was what got me into this area specifically...
So you seem to think I'm right about the 8th IR (or JR) being Bavarian and the Garde Feld Artillery being raised from Prussia?
If you would have a look and see where you have the 30th Foot Artillery Regiment originating from I'd be ultra grateful as I can then fit the straps on to their display board this weekend together with the correct buttons for the first time since they were worn!
I wish I could have more of a story behind some of my pieces like Chip has with his GFA Nr 1 straps. I have my Great grandfathers cap badge from his days in the Leeds Rifles (PWO 7th Battalion West Yorkshire Rgt) and my other Grandfather's cap badge from the East Surreys.
Simon
So you seem to think I'm right about the 8th IR (or JR) being Bavarian and the Garde Feld Artillery being raised from Prussia?
If you would have a look and see where you have the 30th Foot Artillery Regiment originating from I'd be ultra grateful as I can then fit the straps on to their display board this weekend together with the correct buttons for the first time since they were worn!
I wish I could have more of a story behind some of my pieces like Chip has with his GFA Nr 1 straps. I have my Great grandfathers cap badge from his days in the Leeds Rifles (PWO 7th Battalion West Yorkshire Rgt) and my other Grandfather's cap badge from the East Surreys.
Simon
joerookery
Well-known member
I thought I could just pull a rabbit out of my hat. Quite embarrassing when this has become an interesting search. I have field artillery down significantly but foot artillery... I seem to have run out of regiments at 28. So then I started to look at separate battalions. No luck there either. I am pretty certain that they are not Bavarian, but I have no detail at all. Maybe Chip does??? angry9: angry9: This is what is so enjoyable, as well as frustrating when you deal with the regiments!
We will solve this one eventually, but I hit a dead end.Yes, number 8 in the Prussian list was a Grenadier regiment. The Gd artillery was recruited from the entire area of the Imperial German Empire but was actually raised in the Berlin area. I did not look up 6gdfar.
Isn't this addicting! :drunken: