Hessen Train

[gunner cooper]

It took 4 years and a couple of false starts but thanks to a forum member here at last is my Hessen EM helmet. I love it and it takes pride of place. I did consider getting the correct cockades but these came with it so preservation rather than restoration.

[imghttp://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag347/jcooper998/hessen%20008_zpsivc7lcqd.jpg][/img]

 

[kaiser]

its a nice one and hard to find with the kreutzblatt
it would be hard to look for the hessen plate with the correct wear and patina to resemble the rest of parts from the helmet
now it is a bit shiny commpaired to the rest of your haube(thats my opion)
but still great with al the markings inside =D>

jonas

 

[joerookery]

Could I see more close-ups of the mark?

 

[Arran]

its a nice one and hard to find with the kreutzblatt
it would be hard to look for the hessen plate with the correct wear and patina to resemble the rest of parts from the helmet
now it is a bit shiny commpaired to the rest of your haube(thats my opion)
but still great with al the markings inside =D>

jonas

The plate could very well be original to the helmet- its been gilded, so it will not oxidize and darken like the rest of the bare brass mounts...

 

[ww1czechlegion]

By member Arran:
The plate could very well be original to the helmet- its been gilded, so it will not oxidize and darken like the rest of the bare brass mounts...

Arran is 100% correct. If my memory serves me well, I think that Bruno showed this helmet earlier, and said that the helmet came as seen, purchased directly from a family in Europe.

I have had Prussian enlisted pattern helmets with these shiny gilded frontplates on them. I have an enlisted man's helmet made by Depaheg Patent that has a shiny Prussian front plate on the helmet and the rest of the brass fitting on the helmet have a dark patina.

I had a Wurttemburg helmet I found a couple of years ago from a family that several respected members on here were of the belief that it had a fake/replica Wurttemburg front plate on it because the front plate was so shiny looking. The banned former member and trouble maker "drewlarge" started the ball rolling by incorrectly calling it a "parts helmet". http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8350&hilit=wurttemburg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unfortunately I sold the helmet to help finance the purchase of my Bavarian Chevauleger/Schwere Reiter officer helmet with spike, trichter & plume, field cover, and storage case.

These front plates look shiny because they are gilded (or have a gilt or brass wash on them) and thus they don't have the patina of the rest of the brass fittings on a helmet. They are similar in appearance to the ersatz belt buckles that were made of steel and have a brass wash on them to make the buckle look like it was made of brass, instead of steel.

Best Regards,

Alan

 

[poniatowski]

Nice helmet! Actually, the cruciform base is common to prewar Hessen helmets. Tony has a nice description in Kaiser's Bunker:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/pickelhaube.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Ron

 

[argonne]

These front plates look shiny because they are gilded (or have a gilt or brass wash on them) and thus they don't have the patina of the rest of the brass fittings on a helmet.

You are perfectly right!!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Philippe

 

[911car]

Arran, Alan, Philippe are of course absolutely correct. Gilded plates, if not abused, scrubbed, polished, won't really age and may exhibit a sharp colour contrast with other fittings if the latter are left to develop normal patina.

 

[kaiser]

this is a great example why i became a member of the forum
just learning from eatch other enlarges the nodlege of haubes
this was someting i did not fullly know
i become smarter every day :thumb up:

jonas

 

[gunner cooper]

Good memory Alan it is the same helmet, Joe there are stamps all over the neck guard I will try and get some better pictures uploaded

 

[Spiker]

Great helmet :thumb up: nothing wrong with the wappen.
One would be tempted to change the cockades but if this is how the helmet came from the owners family ; don’t touch .
congrats.

 

[joerookery]

Gunner, thanks! Bruno beat you to it and sent the link to the old thread. Thank you for your effort. Still not entirely sure what the "2G" is all about.

 

[argonne]

Still not entirely sure what the "2G" is all about.

And still not sure what´s the number behind the TB...????? It should be 18 for the Hessen Train. But I see a 25 :-k

Philippe

 

[911car]

Still not entirely sure what the "2G" is all about.

And still not sure what´s the number behind the TB...????? It should be 18 for the Hessen Train. But I see a 25 :-k

Philippe

Philippe, from 1890 to 1901 the Hessian Train company bore the number of the Hessian Division: 25. It is only in 1901 that it became TB18, referring to the XVIII Army Corps.
Bruno

 

[argonne]

Still not entirely sure what the "2G" is all about.

And still not sure what´s the number behind the TB...????? It should be 18 for the Hessen Train. But I see a 25 :-k

Philippe

Philippe, from 1890 to 1901 the Hessian Train company bore the number of the Hessian Division: 25. It is only in 1901 that it became TB18, referring to the XVIII Army Corps.
Bruno

Yes Bruno, as mentioned in the Larcade Tome II, page 178. But how do you explain the fact of a TB25 stamp on a spike helmet, considering that the enlisted men in the hessian Train wore the shako till 1903? After this date for a spike helmet, it should be TB18....It seems, this helmet is marked 1904...

Philippe

 

[argonne]

Re,

Further, does the spike unscrew on this helmet, as it should be for the hessian Train?
The M91 side posts also have to be thicker to fit the gilt convex chinscales.

One more thing I am not understanding: the M95 Pickelhaube for a hessian train unit should have ventilation on the back trim, or am I completely wrong? On this Haube, the two studs on the back trim is identifying a hessian cavalry helmet (Dragoon)...

Or do we have here something uncommon like that, Tony´s DR23 helmet that went later to the JR117???

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh44.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This could have been first a dragoon helmet that was then worn in the TB18 after 1903, but stamped with the old TB25 instead of TB18???

Philippe

 

[911car]

Philippe this has been amply discussed on the forum before, and the conclusion was that there was probably a mistake in the affirmation that the Hessian Train only wore only Tschakos till the early 1900's.
In my experience, you find as many non-screwable spikes as detachable ones in the Train. I have a Hessian Train later helmet, marked TB18, with a non-detachable spike.
And remember that Larcade also reminds us (p 177) that regulations were rarely followed in Train units!...
Bruno

 

[argonne]

Philippe this has been amply discussed on the forum before, and the conclusion was that there was probably a mistake in the affirmation that the Hessian Train only wore only Tschakos till the early 1900's.
In my experience, you find as many non-screwable spikes as detachable ones in the Train. I have a Hessian Train later helmet, marked TB18, with a non-detachable spike.
And remember that Larcade also reminds us (p 177) that regulations were rarely followed in Train units!...
Bruno

Bruno, now I understand what you are meaning!!!
It seems I missed your first topic about this helmet and the clear argumentation of other reference members about this good Haube
Now I am also pretty sure this haube was first a hessian dragoon which was then worn in the hessian train as this unit got spike helmets in the year 1903.
Something like Tony´s haube of the DR23, then JR117. It now makes sense with those two examples!

Philippe
:wink:

 

[joerookery]

Hesse has always been an anomaly. Sometimes you got to wish that this province would have been amalgamated into the Kingdom of Prussia after 1866. There are Hessians, people who call themselves Hessians and things are just do not make sense at least to me. If you have not read this I think it lays it up pretty well: http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Hessian%20Shako.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So what does this all mean?
It seems obvious that in the case of Hesse shako were used for other purposes besides Landwehr and the Landsturm.
There seems to be some sort of confusion about brigade boundaries and the boundaries of the political entity of Hesse Darmstadt. Some of these reserve units and brigades seem to be outside of what one would consider Hessen Darmstadt. Therefore, it seems as though people thought of themselves as Hessian even though they were no longer citizens of that state. There was doubtless Hessian wappen/buckles used outside of the state.
There are lots of questions and no clear answers.

 

[edwin]

Nice helmet and interesting topic

Regards,

Edwin