Hessian units 1914/18

[Das158er]

Were there any new Hessian Divisions formed in the first war, I am guessing yes, can anyone help me find them.
Also can anyone help me locate Hessian Divisions that were located in the
Messines area, I know the 25th Reserve Division were close by at the end of 1914, but were there any after that and if so I am guesing thet would be new formations.
Stu Das158er

 

[KAGGR 1870]

Hello
The hessians infanterie was in Infanterie Division 25
The others division with Hessians soldiers was
Reserve division 21: RIR 88 (bataillon II)
Reserve Division 25: RIR 116 and RIR 118
Reserve Division 48: RIR 221 and RIR 222
All have hessians helmet and uniforms
Regards

 

[Robert]

All have hessians helmet and uniforms

May I ask a question in this context? This picture arrived yesterday. While it is nothing spectacular (Korporals of RIR 116), I was wondering about the mixture of helmets:
* Felt and leather helmets with Hessian plate
* Helmets with Prussian plate
* And the guy in the back, third from left even has a 1905 leather visor helmet

Was this mixture usual in Hessian units, perhaps due to shortage?

 

[joerookery]

Robert believe it or not I actually have the same exact picture! This has happened to me once in the past, where Tony had a picture of guard reservists. And I stumbled on the exact same one.

The picture of JR116 has a huge amount of anomalies. Here is another one from JR 168.

It seems as though the Prussian wappen was the default when the individual state wappen was not available. I have seen a huge number of these spanning pretty much all of the individual agreements but not the other contingents. For instance there are a lot of Baden mixes, but I have seen none from Saxony. It seems to me that as pictures went on individual state wappens became rare. this is really backed up by the types and the number of M15 wappen, we find.

Was it a shortage? Was it a production expediency? Was that a funding issue? I don't know. I cannot even tell you, which regiments were supposed to wear which wappen if all the "rules" were followed.

I am especially befuddled by Hessian units. There seems to be a desire on the part of many individuals to refer to themselves as Hessian or for others to refer to them as Hessian when they used to be citizens or residents of a Hessian province. I have seen individuals from a landmass of Hesse Homburg and Hesse Cassel as well as some from Nassau calling themselves or being referred to as Hessian. We in America did a horrible job, as we generally refer to all German mercenaries in our Revolutionary war as Hessians, even though most of them were not.

 

[KAGGR 1870]

Hello
The mixture of wappen is not surprising in this regiments
We can not forget that at the begening of the war numerous regiments were set up in emergency ( this was not previous ) particularly "Junges" reserve regiments nr 201-248.
If we add the great losses......
On the other hand the Hessian kingdom is a small kingdom with a small army (only five infantry regiments) with small resources and small materials means.
It is very clear that the increased demand could be followed only by the great states such as Prussia and Saxony that had big stock reserve.
So in first time german army was constrained to use the available stocks and then was forced to seek all it was possible to use in "ersatz".
The only great stock to be on hand was prussian and all "small army" like Hessians Baden .... have to complete hers equipments with this.
The standard material was kept for regulars infanterie regiments but in reserve and landwehr we can found everything
The same occur to the prussian army in 1915 when the stock was empty
Regards

 

[Robert]

believe it or not I actually have the same exact picture!

ccasion5: Is yours stamped? Mine has no back writing at all.

Is seems logical what you both said about the shortage resulting in imports from Prussia. It must have hurt them to carry Prussian line eagles. The small states usually took pride in distinguishing themselves from the dominating Prussian state.

I think the reason for some of the confusion concerning Hessen is that the Hessian territory did not always match the political borders. In contrast to other tribal territories at the begin of the middle ages, Hessen did not turn into a dominant state of its own. The terrritory of Hessen was controlled by several other surrunding states over the time, including Prussia. Therefore, many regions that would consider themselves as Hessian did not politically belong to a state or province called Hessen. Actually it was the Americans who founded the modern state of Hessen in 1945, combining various provinces and regions to one large state territory.

 

[joerookery]

I think you both have very valid points. Let me show you an example I have been working on that contradicts several secondary sources. Conventional wisdom has it that Hesse Darmstadt, also known as Hesse or properly as Hessen und bei Rhein, lost no territory as a result of the 1866 war. Again, conventional wisdom ties this to blood lines or relations. This is not true. Prussia took a piece of this grand duchy but not all of it. In this piece of an 1856 map, you can see the finger of Hesse Darmstadt that used to belong to the grand duchy prior to 1866. it is that extension to the northwest of Gießen and the northern enclaves.

So you have some people from Limburg to Bad Hersfeld then around to Offenbach being referred to in some sources as Hessian. This plays havoc on my attempts to determine recruiting.

 

[Robert]

Conventional wisdom has it that Hesse Darmstadt, also known as Hesse or properly as Hessen und bei Rhein, lost no territory as a result of the 1866 war

Hessen-Darmstadt did loose some territory, but to a rather moderate extent. Particularly the region Hessen-Homburg and the so-called Hessian Hinterland (an allmost isolated part) fell to Prussia.

The people from the former Hinterland also referred to themselves as "Muss-Preußen" (forced Prussians). To make things even more complicated, Prussia added the territories of eight more towns to the Hinterland that never belonged to it before, and their population rejected the term Hinterland for themselves.

Most of the territories in the Hessen region that Prussia won in the 1866 war (including also Frankfurt/Main and a few Bavarian border regions) were combined oin the new province Hessen-Nassau. This province, togather with Waldeck and parts of Thüringen, formed the garnison and the recruiting area for the XI. Armeekorps

I would suppose that only infantry recruits from the Grand dutchy Hessen-Darmstadt would have beared the Hessen coat of arms on the helmet. I.e., only units from the two Hessian brigades (49 and 50) and of course any additional units formed during the war.

My source lists the following IRs from these brigades:
* IR 115 Leibgarde-Infanterie-Regiment (1. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.115
* IR 116 Infanterie-Regiment Kaiser Wilhelm (2. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.116
* IR 117 Infanterie-Leibregiment Großherzogin (3. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.117
* IR 118 Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Carl (4. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.118
* IR 168 5. Großherzoglich-Hessisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.168

And additionally following Landsturm/Ersatz IRs were established:
* LIR 115 Landsturm-Infanterie-Regiment Nr 115 (23.2.1915)
* LIR 116 Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 116 (2.8.1914)
* RIR 116 Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 116 (2.8.1914)
* LIR 118 Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr 118 (2.8.1914)
* RIR 118 Reserve-Infanterie Regiment Nr. 118 (2.8.1914)
* RIR 221 Reserve-Infanterie Regiment Nr. 221 (25.8.1914)
* RIR 222 Reserve-Infanterie Regiment Nr. 222 (27.8.1914)

 

[KAGGR 1870]

Hello
In your listing the RIR 88 is missing
This RIR have only one Hessian bataillon (II) that wear hessian helmet
(I have one) and the others I and III wear prussian
This RIR was in ID 21 (Brigade 42) see this link
http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/RIR_88
Regards

 

[Robert]

Yep, thanks for the info! May I ask how your helmet is stamped? Does the stamp indicate the battailon? What type is it (standard, felt, M15)?

 

[joerookery]

This is a very interesting discussion! Robert I am not familiar with the term "the so-called Hessian Hinterland". Where is it? Is it that all part of Hesse-Homburg that I know as Meisenheim?

Bernhard I am very interested also in seeing this Mark -- I would also ask if we could put it on the list. As we do not have one.

Reserve division 21: RIR 88 (bataillon II)
Reserve Division 25: RIR 116 and RIR 118
Reserve Division 48: RIR 221 and RIR 222
All have hessians helmet and uniforms

Where/how did you determine that these guys were supposed to have Hessian helmets? Did you use the geography of their home base? for instance Wörms clearly is located in Hesse Darmstadt for RJR 88, second Battalion. Is there some sort of regulation that you are aware of that directs the helmet?

Robert it took me a while to find the cards -- I have way too many -- but here are the back of those two postcards. The first one is from JR 116 and the second one from JR 168. Luckily both of them have writing. Thank you all again for this thread!

 

[Robert]

Joe, I´m on the fly right now but here is a map that gives an impression. The Hinterland is centered around the town Biedenkopf and has a long tradition of being the Hessian backyard. They developed a rather independent self-image over time, and an own dialect.

 

[joerookery]

Well you learn something everyday! So basically the area lost by Hesse Darmstadt during the 1866 war was called the hinterland. As far as the Bavarian losses. I thought they lost only one enclave in Thuringia, a small enclave in Thuringia called Kaulsdorf; am I wrong?

 

[Robert]

From what I know, besides Kaulsdorf they also lost the county Gersfeld with the towns Tann, Hilders and Weyhers, and the city Orb. What might be noted too, Bavaria had to pay 30 million Gulden compensation in contrats to only 3 milllion by the Grand Dutchy Hessen.

 

[KAGGR 1870]

Hello
To complete
I think only military units with Grossherzogin Hessian origin wore hessian helmet
Here is my RIR88 2th bataillon helmet marking RIR 88 2B
Here are two links:
http://home.att.net/~ordersandmedals/germany/hessearmy.htm
http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/grossherzogtum_hessen.htm
Regards

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Thank you for the informative links, Bernard, and for sharing the pictures of your scarce and wonderful helmet.

Here is my example representing the 25th Kavallerie-Brigade, specifically, 2. Großherzoglich Hessische Leib-Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 24, Kaiser Nicol II. v Rußland (Darmstadt)

Chas.

 

[joerookery]

This morning I spent five or six hours going through the text of the armistice
from the Peace of Nikolsburg. And Robert you are absolutely right! Gersfeld did switch boundaries. This is interesting because it is not mentioned in any secondary sources that I am aware of. It is not mentioned in the armistice and is apparently only mentioned in the peace treaty between Prussia and Bavaria, which I don't have a copy of. I worked the pre 1866 boundary and compared it to the boundary post 1866. I went up and down the Fulda River. I had a great time, and you are dead right. The one thing I did find is that the free city of Frankfurt voted themselves out of existence rather than pay the indemnity!

 

[Robert]

Thats an interesting point about Frankfurt, I did not know that they had the option of staying independent but paying a compensation. Somewhere I read that the population in some ex-Hessian and other annexed regions was not opposed to their connection to Prussia, and that there was a certain tendency in the bourgeoisie towords Prussia which was considered more modern.

I think the Bavarian-Prussian treaty was dated in August 1866 - a bit earlier than the treaty concerning the Grand Dutchy which followed in September, and the other territories in October. I would need to look where I stored that information.

Concering the Prussian stopgap helmets, I wonder whether they had the time to stamp them correctly and switch on the Hessian cocarde. Some Prussian line helmets might emerge that bear depot marks of Hessian regiments.

 

[gregM]

Very interesting discussion. I am very impressed with the amount
of research being done regarding the the various regiment and unit
markings. It really brings a sense of history to the helmet.

While not pickelhaube related here is a little Prussion/Hessian piece.
It is a miniature award (for civilian dress) that shows the Prussion
Iron cross 2nd class and the Hessian bravery medal in silver. The
Hessian equilivant to the IC2.

( mods-please feel free to delete this if it does not fit the discussion)

 

[Gustaf]

Hey Greg,
I was tempted to delete part of your last post,
"( mods-please feel free to delete this if it does not fit the discussion) "
As it was the only part of your post that was off topic.
Best wishes
Gus