Hopefully one for Peter Suciu.

USMC-EOD

USMC-EOD

Active member
Hello gents,

I've got a model 1874 French cuirassier helmet that is a little beat up. It has a screw on the top front of the brass comb above Medusa's head. I beleive this part of the helmet is refered to as the "cimere", and I know I am spelling it incorrectly.

I've seen this screw on other Model 1874s. Some of them were described as dragoon helmets and some as cuirassier, and many of them were unit marked for one or the other type of cavalry formation. Just about all of them had this screw. Some that were marked specifically for dragoon regiments had no provision for a screw/hole, but the cimere were identical to the screw-hole type.

I know that cuirassier units typically had a horse hair tufted brass globe inserted into this hole which I think was called a "marmouzet" (I am probably butchering the French spelling on this as well).

I have not found much printed in English about French cavalry helmets of this period, but I did look at a lot of the pictures from a book that some of you may be familiar with called "Le Cuirassiers" (Boy, I must really sound like a knuckle-dragger by now).

For those more knowledgeable on the subject of pre-WWI French cavalry headgear, a couple of questions:

1. A couple of other cavalry formations used this type of helmet, correct? Which ones? Were the cuirassiers the only ones authorized the marmouzet? Were they only utilized for parade use?

2. Were the marmouzet removed by cuirassier units when wearing the helmet cover? I've seen pictures of them wearing them with covers, but I've seen pictures of what were obviously cuirassiers without the marmouzet, while wearing helmet covers, and with breast/back plates (cuirass') on the troops.

3. I have had other collectors tell me about "low comb" helmets that they refer to as the Model 1912, with a comb similar to the one you might find on a French Gendarme helmet, but I have never seen one of these. Do they exist? Which cavalry formations would have been issued this type of headgear at this late date?

4. Finally, is there a good reference written in English that I can refer to in order to alleviate the necessity of just "looking at pictures"?

I appreciate any crumbs of knowledge you can toss my way concerning this subject. It really does seem difficult to find much beyond the most rudimentary information on the subject of French cavalry helmets and cuirasses.

Thanks and Semper Fi.

Bryan.
 
Hi Bryan

I won't attempt to answer your technical questions but I can direct you to a very good english language reference regarding the French Army of about 1880 to 1918. It is a two volume set by Mirouze & Dekerle and they are entitled "The French Army in the first world war-to battle 1914 and the French Army in the first world war-1914 to 1918. These are massive, full color tomes which are entirely in English. They go into good detail on the other French mounted units such as Dragoons and Gendarmes who wore these great old crested helmets. I believe these books are available from our friends at Advance Guard Militaria.

Larmo

PS good to see you again at Pomona
 
Hey Bryan,
According to the above mentioned book, the M72/74 helmet was common to the cuirassiers and the dragoons, in the case of the latter, without the marmouset, the cover had a hole int he top to allow the marmouset to be worn in the field, in Laurent and Stephane's book, there is a great photo of cuirassiers taken just before the war wearing the helmets with covers and marmousets, but they were apearently removed as the war progressed.
It looks like the Hussars wore the low comb helmet, and this book refers to them as the M1910 helmet.
Best wishes
Gus
 
Bryan- you made Gus practice his reading which is nice, he is correct on the above.

The best French Helmet referance I have found is in the link below, all in French but still a good one.

James


http://cgi.ebay.fr/LES-COIFFURES-DE-LARMEE-FRANCAISE-Joseph-MARGERAND_W0QQitemZ290362090832QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFR_YO_Collections8militaria_DocumentsMilitaria?hash=item439aede550
 
Gentlemen,

Thank you all very much.

Larry, I will definitely look into the purchase of this book set! Good to see you at Pomona too. Most of the folks I know agree that you normally have one of the best tables of the show.

Gus! I had no idea you knew anything concerning these types of helmets! I would have been asking a bunch of these questions in Yuma. And I will get that package we were discussing out to you this weekend; I had "issues" with one of my Marines over the last week or so that have kept me pretty busy.

James, I believe that a friend of mine has a copy of this book in his extensive library. I will check it out. Thanks for the tip.

It's funny, but the interest and literature in English concerning German head gear does not seem to be reflected in their primary protagonists by what I would consider the "mainstream" of militaria collecting. Perhaps because they usually lost when they went head to head over the decades? Who knows? But still beautiful helmets regardless. I appreciate the assistance gents.

Semper Fi,

Bryan.
 
Hey Bryan,
I know diddly about these helmets, like James said, you made me practise my reading.
If you are interested in French military, you need to have The French Army, volume one covers up to 1914, and vol 2 is 1914 to 1918. Laurent said that they had access to an unbelievable number of uniforms and equipment, and that shows in the books.
Gus
 
I'm arriving late to this, but I'm sorry to say I know very little about French cavalry helmets. My knowledge is very general, enough to know that these influenced the French fireman's helmets, which were inspiration for the French "Adrian" steel helmet in WWI.

I am thus continually annoyed by generalist helmet collectors who like to point out that the Adrian is the "first" modern steel combat helmet. It isn't, for the reasons I just pointed out.

But I still find these helmets quite fascinating. Maybe when my life turns around I can think about doing more research and increasing my French helmet collection!
 
Bryan,
An excellent reference, but also in French, is "Casques et Coiffures Militaires Francais" by Christian Tavard, Jacques Grancher editions (1981). The same series and format as the 2 Larcade's.
I am not knowledgeable about French helmets but if you have specific questions I can try to find out in this book and let you know.
Bruno
 
Hi Bruno-
I have the same book, and it is an excellent source. I found my copy at SOS last year.

There was also a two volume set published on French helmets by Roland Hennequin. It is more of an encyclopedia on French helmets from 1900 to 1944 Volume 1, and from 1945-1970 Volume 2. I am not sure if Hennequin is planning to do a third volume or not, but I think that was the original plan.

These are in French, English and German, and actually Volume 1 goes a lot further back than 1900. It includes some examples from the Franco-Prussian War era and of course the early Third Republic period. It does show how the French had plans to introduce a helmet prior to WWI as well.

And while I'd say that for anyone interested primarily in WWI the first volume would suffice, unfortunately Hennequin included the section on sun helmets at the end of Volume 2, and this is probably the second best source on French helmets that I can think of at this point.
 
Thank you for the information Peter. Sounds very interesting. I will try to find out whether these books are currently available.
 
Thank you Peter, Bruno, and Gus.

Gus-packages will be on the way tomorrow. I appreciate your research on my behalf.

I also appreciate the direction you gents have pointed me in so I can get some research done. Give a man a fish..., teach a man to fish..., and so forth. Happy Thanksgiving and Semper Fi.

Bryan.
 
HeyBryan....any chance of some pics of this helmet? I also have no knowledge of French curassier head gear. Brian
 
Hi Brian,

As I've said, I don't know enough about these things. Left to right you can see that the combs gradually get lower as time goes by. On the left is an 1850's or a little later cuirassier helmet. It has a kind of "Minerva" shape to the crown which I guess was the style for when it was made. The seal skin turban is a little ratty, but it was my first of this type of French cavalry helmet, and I like it a lot.

Next to it is a model 72/74 helmet with the big screw where the marmouzet should be. On the end is what Gus was saying is a Model 1910 Gendarme helmet.

I would like to see other cavalry formations' Model 1872/74 and Model 1910 helmets (other types) if any of the members have them.

The second photo shows the top of the comb with the screw in place. I'm keeping an eye out for the attachment that screws in there. These helmets are all beaters for the most part, and I was able to get them fairly cheap compared to nicer ones. Basically what my budget can stand month to month. I'm going to post some cuirasses on another part of the site.

S/F

Bryan.

dsc01047e.jpg


dsc01048q.jpg
 
Those are far from beaters! Very nice examples.

My one French Dragoon is also a bit removed from what I normally like, but it was a good deal. Basically I bought a British Dragoon helmet and for the price the Frenchie was included. It is a good placeholder until money comes in.

But I always find new stuff to buy!
 
Thanks Peter.

I would enjoy seeing a pic of it and any of the others that folks who frequent this site have on hand.

Bryan.
 
Hey Bryan,
For beaters, they look good to me. We are going to be in Yuma over the Christmas hollidays, but because of time limits, we are able to be away from the farm for a few days, If you would like, I could post my French Army books to you to look through, to see if you want to get copies for your self.
Gus
 
Very nice helmets Bryan! Here is a related series of three, that shows that the height of not only the "cimier" but also the whole shell decreased significantly during the XIXth century, as was the case in Germany and other countries.
1825 cuirassier (em), 1845 dragon (em) and 1872 cuirassier (officer). The latter is not a rare one but this example is in beautiful condition, with the gold gilding mostly intact and the original red "plumet".
All of these are entirely original and unmessed with, except for the marmouset on the 1825 model.
I'll be happy to send more pictures if you wish.
Bruno
Picture001.jpg
 
Bryan, do not look for anything else to be attached to the comb of your 1872 helmet! There was no marmouset worn on this model. It is perfectly correct as it is. The screw is only there to fasten the top of the comb, which is detachable and encloses the horse hair ornament.
 
Gus!

You are too kind. I appreciate it, but I need the incentive to buy these for myself. I need to continue to build my library. Give me a shout when you get to Yuma; maybe I can roll over that way to say "hi" and check out another gun show.

Bruno-amazing helmets. The fake leopard skin turban on your Dragoon helmet is one of the best I've seen. A buddy of mine out here in California has a pile of these types of helmets, 1850s vintage and earlier, but he did not know a lot about the newer Model 1872 vintage helms. I really appreciate your input and I would love to see details of the liners, chin scales and unit markings. Thank you very much.
Semper Fi,
 
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