joerookery
Well-known member
Okay so here is the bandsmen and just as I was about to roll over and go back to sleep. It looks like --- just maybe, he has a 55 mm cockade.
I wonder if he was a hippie?
- Thread starter joerookery
- Start date
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Anonymous
Guest
Where do all the hippies meet?
South Street, South Street.
South Street, South Street.
Joe,
he is wearing the uniform of a Stabshoboist of the pattern in use from 1898-1908. As a Portepee-Unteroffizier he was of course entitled to "officer Pattern" cockades. From 1898 onwards the dress of the Stabshoboist/Stabstrompeter/Stabshornist took on a more quasi officer appearance further refined in 1908. The Stabshoboist always wore chin scales with his NCO/Soldier pattern helmet.
Regards
Glenn
he is wearing the uniform of a Stabshoboist of the pattern in use from 1898-1908. As a Portepee-Unteroffizier he was of course entitled to "officer Pattern" cockades. From 1898 onwards the dress of the Stabshoboist/Stabstrompeter/Stabshornist took on a more quasi officer appearance further refined in 1908. The Stabshoboist always wore chin scales with his NCO/Soldier pattern helmet.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
Glenn I guess my confusion is the definition of "officer pattern". He is an unterofficer so a 48mm cockade with silver ring is expected by me. This one looks bigger. Have you found anything in Munster that details "Offricer pattern"?
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Anonymous
Guest
Joe: Nice photo. From the belt and buckle this fellow was a band master.
As for the helmet, it is clearly a private purchase piece so the kokardes could be whatever the owner wanted to buy.
Reservist1
As for the helmet, it is clearly a private purchase piece so the kokardes could be whatever the owner wanted to buy.
Reservist1
joerookery
Well-known member
This makes my head hurt. He could buy what ever he wanted but what was he authorized to wear? Were band masters different than other Portepee Unteroffiziere? The
reservist1
Member
Joe: Bandmasters were non commissioned officers. Their uniforms are somewhat unique and are probably the most confusing in the German army. The uniform underwent many changes between the mid 1890's and the beginning of world War I. At one point it became almost indistinguishable from an officer's uniform and was then changed back to one closer to a standard NCO uniform.
At first glance the fellow in the photo looks to be wearing an officer brocade belt and buckle, however, the buckle is unique to bandmasters as shown below.
The belt is different from an officers belt in that it is not a metallic brocade. The belt is in the particular state colors.
Bandmasters did have somewhat special status. As an example they were permitted to accept payment for musical performances conducted for various civilian groups.
Concerning the wear of private purchase helmets by enlisted personnel in general, it is important to remember that these helmets would not have been worn during normal every day duty.
At first glance the fellow in the photo looks to be wearing an officer brocade belt and buckle, however, the buckle is unique to bandmasters as shown below.
The belt is different from an officers belt in that it is not a metallic brocade. The belt is in the particular state colors.
Bandmasters did have somewhat special status. As an example they were permitted to accept payment for musical performances conducted for various civilian groups.
Concerning the wear of private purchase helmets by enlisted personnel in general, it is important to remember that these helmets would not have been worn during normal every day duty.
joerookery
Well-known member
Thanks for the update that is cool! I understand private purchase helms but not the uniform info. Is there a reference you use for these? Thanks!
reservist1
Member
Joe: You can find some basic informatrion on musicians and their uniforms in the following:
Pietsch, Volume 1, pages 74-79,
Das Deutsche Heer volume 1, pages 385-401. This concentrates primarily on the musical instruments.
Das Deutsche Heer Volume 3, plates 184 & 185.
The German Army in the First world War by Kraus, pages 254-257.
The above will give you the basics but they do not go into all the various changes to the bandmaster uniform.
From looking at your photograph the fellow is wearing a centinary medal so the photo can be no earlier than 1897. He also has a private purchase model 89 infantry officer sword in the pre 1905 pattern.
Reservist1
Pietsch, Volume 1, pages 74-79,
Das Deutsche Heer volume 1, pages 385-401. This concentrates primarily on the musical instruments.
Das Deutsche Heer Volume 3, plates 184 & 185.
The German Army in the First world War by Kraus, pages 254-257.
The above will give you the basics but they do not go into all the various changes to the bandmaster uniform.
From looking at your photograph the fellow is wearing a centinary medal so the photo can be no earlier than 1897. He also has a private purchase model 89 infantry officer sword in the pre 1905 pattern.
Reservist1
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Anonymous
Guest
I would like to add the ribbon for the Wilhelm Centenary was yellow, a primary color invisible to the orthochromatic film of the period. This is why it appears as dark gray. Consequently, anyone thinking he can divine the original color of an item from the gray scale of orthochromatic film is sadly mistaken.reservist1 said:
Our bandmaster appears to have a Waterloo Bandau on his Pickelhaube Wappen. I wonder what his unit was?
Chas.