chrispaulodale
Active member
Yes, I'd really like a copy of the website. I've just messaged you.
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris
Identifying the unidentified
- Thread starter Glennj
- Start date
Here is an interesting shot; not so much unidentified but grossly misidentified! In the foreground we have GFM von Hindenburg greeting the Hetman of Ukraine, Pavlo Skoropadsky. So far so good. However, it is the chap in the centre who is problematical. Depending on your image provider of choice, this officer is either General Kruber (Getty images) or General Groebe (Imperial War Museum). He is neither. He is a Prussian Flügeladjutant and none other than the 2. Kommandant (deputy commandant) of the Großes Hauptquartier, Major Leopold Freiherr von Münchhausen. The IWM even managed to transpose the picture; note his aiguillette is on his left (wrong side)!
Regards
Glenn
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
Another great sense of sleuthing.
This from the well known series of photographs by Oscar Tellgmann showing the final "Kaiser-Manöver" of 1913. Helpfully, the image is captioned but not with the name of the General der Infanterie/Kavallerie (facing the camera with a map in his left hand). The caption itself is not without error; the Italian general in conversation with the Kaiser is not Luigi Cadorna but Alberto Pollio. General Cadorna succeeded to the post of chief of staff of the Italian army the next year following General Pollio's death.
Herr General has been troubling me for a long time. A Franco-German war veteran as denoted by the ribbon of the Iron Cross 2nd Class and a holder of a commanders' grade neck decoration of the House Order of Hohenzollern. Frankly, there were not that many active officers of the war of 1870-71 still serving in 1913. He is not a Generaladjutant (No aiguillette) and neither of the corps commanders of V. and VI. Armeekorps who were opposing each other in the 1913 manoeuvres.
He does look familiar but was not the officer I initially considered. So who is he?
I have a name but if anyone would like to make a suggestion.
Regards
Glenn
Herr General has been troubling me for a long time. A Franco-German war veteran as denoted by the ribbon of the Iron Cross 2nd Class and a holder of a commanders' grade neck decoration of the House Order of Hohenzollern. Frankly, there were not that many active officers of the war of 1870-71 still serving in 1913. He is not a Generaladjutant (No aiguillette) and neither of the corps commanders of V. and VI. Armeekorps who were opposing each other in the 1913 manoeuvres.
He does look familiar but was not the officer I initially considered. So who is he?
I have a name but if anyone would like to make a suggestion.
Regards
Glenn
Sandmann
Well-known member
Here is another Foto from this maneuver and Falkenhayn stands next to the Emperor. I think it is the same guy.
www.alamy.de
Das letzte imperiale Manöver in Schlesien vor dem Ersten Weltkrieg. Von links nach rechts: König Konstantin I. von Griechenland in preußischer Uniform, General Friedrich von Scholl, General Erich von Falkenhayn, General Hans von Kessel, Prinz Egon vo
Dieses Stockfoto: Das letzte imperiale Manöver in Schlesien vor dem Ersten Weltkrieg. Von links nach rechts: König Konstantin I. von Griechenland in preußischer Uniform, General Friedrich von Scholl, General Erich von Falkenhayn, General Hans von Kessel, Prinz Egon von Fürstenberg, General...
www.alamy.de
Sandmann
Well-known member
On the other hand, he looks similar to General von Plessen. Here is the same photo like yours and the guy you are looking for was named Hans Georg von Plessen:
But it's a bit confusing because in the first group photo I posted, General von Plessen was identified as the first from the right and he didn't have a medal around his neck in that photo from the same day. So it must be Falkenhayn or Plessen. But since Falkenhayn wore the identical medals on the first group photo and on the portrait I have posted, I think it is Falkenhayn.
Kaiser Wilhelm II. (auf der linken Seite in einer Pickelhaube und eine helle uniform Mantel) auf das Manöver Feld im Gespräch mit einem österreichischen allgemein und der Italienischen General-Count Luigi Cadorna. Auf der linken Seite neben ihm Gener
Dieses Stockfoto: Kaiser Wilhelm II. (auf der linken Seite in einer Pickelhaube und eine helle uniform Mantel) auf das Manöver Feld im Gespräch mit einem österreichischen allgemein und der Italienischen General-Count Luigi Cadorna. Auf der linken Seite neben ihm Generaloberst Helmuth von Moltke...
www.alamy.de
But it's a bit confusing because in the first group photo I posted, General von Plessen was identified as the first from the right and he didn't have a medal around his neck in that photo from the same day. So it must be Falkenhayn or Plessen. But since Falkenhayn wore the identical medals on the first group photo and on the portrait I have posted, I think it is Falkenhayn.
Kaiser Wilhelm II. (auf der linken Seite in einer Pickelhaube und eine helle uniform Mantel) auf das Manöver Feld im Gespräch mit einem österreichischen allgemein und der Italienischen General-Count Luigi Cadorna. Auf der linken Seite neben ihm Gener
Dieses Stockfoto: Kaiser Wilhelm II. (auf der linken Seite in einer Pickelhaube und eine helle uniform Mantel) auf das Manöver Feld im Gespräch mit einem österreichischen allgemein und der Italienischen General-Count Luigi Cadorna. Auf der linken Seite neben ihm Generaloberst Helmuth von Moltke...
www.alamy.de
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Morning Sandy,
the same shot in higher resolution. Generalmajor von Falkenhayn wears his 2nd class Red Eagle Order with Oak Leaves at the throat. Our mystery general wears the same order as Friedrich von Scholl to his left (Komtur or commanders' grade of the Hohenzollern House Order). Generaloberst (mdReGFM) von Plessen is in the first photograph you posted. He is the Generaladjutant whose face is obscured by his binoculars. He wears the Grand Cross of the Red Eagle Order with Swords on the Ring and Crown (see another image from same occasion below).
Regards
Glenn
the same shot in higher resolution. Generalmajor von Falkenhayn wears his 2nd class Red Eagle Order with Oak Leaves at the throat. Our mystery general wears the same order as Friedrich von Scholl to his left (Komtur or commanders' grade of the Hohenzollern House Order). Generaloberst (mdReGFM) von Plessen is in the first photograph you posted. He is the Generaladjutant whose face is obscured by his binoculars. He wears the Grand Cross of the Red Eagle Order with Swords on the Ring and Crown (see another image from same occasion below).
Regards
Glenn
Sandmann
Well-known member
I‘m sorry Glenn, but I have not the possibility to see the high-res photos and wasn’t able to identify the medal correctly. I just compared the face and statue of the General with my photo collection of other Generals. Unfortunately I have no other General in my folder who could match
Hi Sandy,
there is certainly nothing to be sorry about. Those lo-res badly captioned photos on the web do not help!
Right, where do we start with this one? There were two basic problems:
I have never encountered another image of this officer in military uniform and secondly, the bane of any identification - he is just wearing an Überrock and therefore no medal bar on display. At first glance I thought he resembled Bruno von Mudra but although he had served in the Franco-German war of 1870-71, he was not the recipient of an Iron Cross from that war (contrary to his wikepedia article!) and neither the holder of a peacetime Hohenzollern commanders' cross.
Fortunately, the Hohenzollern order, especially at this grade was relatively speaking quite rare. This order was pretty much at the gift of the Kaiser and usually to individuals with some close connection to the Monarch, for example General Adjutants, Flügel-Adjutants, court officials and the like. I eventually found a suitable candidate in the section of the 1914 Rangliste in the section for officers à la suite to the Army:
One General der Infanterie Freiherr von Lyncker (not to be confused with the Generaladjutant of that name, Moritz). So who was this chap and what was he doing in proximity to the Kaiser? Max Freiherr von Lyncker (1845-1923) was a former active officer in 2. Garde-Regiment zu Fuß. He left active service as a Major in 1888 and subsequently entered court service as the court "Haus-Marschall". He continued to be listed in the Prussian army lists as an officer of the 2. Garde-Landwehr-Regiment and as an officer à la suite following his promotion to Generalmajor in 1897.
Anyway, here are a couple of shots of Baron Max in civilian clothing. He did rather well considering he left active service as a major.
Regards
Glenn
Short guy in the centre.
there is certainly nothing to be sorry about. Those lo-res badly captioned photos on the web do not help!
Right, where do we start with this one? There were two basic problems:
I have never encountered another image of this officer in military uniform and secondly, the bane of any identification - he is just wearing an Überrock and therefore no medal bar on display. At first glance I thought he resembled Bruno von Mudra but although he had served in the Franco-German war of 1870-71, he was not the recipient of an Iron Cross from that war (contrary to his wikepedia article!) and neither the holder of a peacetime Hohenzollern commanders' cross.
Fortunately, the Hohenzollern order, especially at this grade was relatively speaking quite rare. This order was pretty much at the gift of the Kaiser and usually to individuals with some close connection to the Monarch, for example General Adjutants, Flügel-Adjutants, court officials and the like. I eventually found a suitable candidate in the section of the 1914 Rangliste in the section for officers à la suite to the Army:
One General der Infanterie Freiherr von Lyncker (not to be confused with the Generaladjutant of that name, Moritz). So who was this chap and what was he doing in proximity to the Kaiser? Max Freiherr von Lyncker (1845-1923) was a former active officer in 2. Garde-Regiment zu Fuß. He left active service as a Major in 1888 and subsequently entered court service as the court "Haus-Marschall". He continued to be listed in the Prussian army lists as an officer of the 2. Garde-Landwehr-Regiment and as an officer à la suite following his promotion to Generalmajor in 1897.
Anyway, here are a couple of shots of Baron Max in civilian clothing. He did rather well considering he left active service as a major.
Regards
Glenn
Short guy in the centre.
Sandmann
Well-known member
A great investigation, Glenn. Thank you for sharing these details, I would have stopped way too early with a wrong guy. I learned t look more to the medals and learn to identify them. I really like investigations like that
But may I ask where do you find these high-resolution photos? Did you buy negatives or is there an open database that I don’t know?
But may I ask where do you find these high-resolution photos? Did you buy negatives or is there an open database that I don’t know?
I am not entirely sure which book this came from. I believe it was from one of the excellent Militaria Verlag publications. There are however some issues with the original caption. My translation of the German language caption:
"Snapshot during a Kaiser-Manoeuvre in the year 1913. From left to right are a Bavarian general, Prince Leopold of Bavaria as a Generalfeldmarschall and Inspector-General of the IV. Army Inspectorate in the uniform as chief of the Westphalian Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 7, an unidentified officer of this regiment, a Prussian general staff officer as a member of a troop general staff as well as a Bavarian general staff officer as a member of a troop general staff."
First issue: Why cannot it be 1913??
Regards
Glenn
"Snapshot during a Kaiser-Manoeuvre in the year 1913. From left to right are a Bavarian general, Prince Leopold of Bavaria as a Generalfeldmarschall and Inspector-General of the IV. Army Inspectorate in the uniform as chief of the Westphalian Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 7, an unidentified officer of this regiment, a Prussian general staff officer as a member of a troop general staff as well as a Bavarian general staff officer as a member of a troop general staff."
First issue: Why cannot it be 1913??
Regards
Glenn
Sandmann
Well-known member
Because he switched from a General-Inspector of the IV. Army to a General-Inspector of the Bavarian Army on October 28
I saw it Glenn, that’s why I deleted the post seconds later. I‘m still looking… meanwhile I found the year of the photo, but not the reason why it can’t be 1913
Hi Sandy,
personalities aside, the reason I was mostly thinking on was the sword scabbards. There are two useful dates for dating photographs;
26 June 1905: The sword scabbards were blackened
3 November 1910: The lower suspension ring was abolished
I reckon this photograph is either 1904 or 1905.
A couple of further observations:
The Bavarian “General” is not a general (yet) and the Bavarian “General staff officer” is not a General staff officer either.
Regards
Glenn
personalities aside, the reason I was mostly thinking on was the sword scabbards. There are two useful dates for dating photographs;
26 June 1905: The sword scabbards were blackened
3 November 1910: The lower suspension ring was abolished
I reckon this photograph is either 1904 or 1905.
A couple of further observations:
The Bavarian “General” is not a general (yet) and the Bavarian “General staff officer” is not a General staff officer either.
Regards
Glenn