Interesting Bayonet and Frog

[Peter B]

I got this bayonet and frog pretty cheaply and find it quite interesting.

There are markings on the frog so that at least is WWI and I read something like BM VII f. The frog also does not have the usual middle rivets but has the strange (very old looking) attachments at the bottom which I have never seen.

The bayonet itself is a short one (maybe fighting knife) and it looks like it has been painted black at some point. Don't know if that would have been period or someone thinking it was a good thing to do it later on.

Any and all thoughts / advice on what I have would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Peter

P.S. I am debating whether or not to remove the black paint from the grip to show the wood. All depends on opnions about whether this is a collector modification or not. Interesting that the studs and nuts holding the wooden grips on are note put in the same (i.e. nuts on different sides).

 

[Bobted]

Looks like WW2 Frog that's had a new bit attached to the front, The Knife looks odd, lucky it was cheap! I personally would put it on ebay. Rob

 

[Peter B]

Looks like WW2 Frog that's had a new bit attached to the front, The Knife looks odd, lucky it was cheap! I personally would put it on ebay. Rob

Yes got it very cheap. Are those not WWI markings on back of the the frog?

 

[Bobted]

Look like WW1 markings you need to add a close up. Could have been added, the knife I think is a WW2 dress bayonet that has had the grips replaced by wooden ones?

 

[Peter B]

Here is a close up. Tried my best to make it clear.

It is also quite a sturdy and larger frog with very thick leather if that helps.

 

[coert65]

It looks/seems to be Bekleidung Instandsetzungs Amt 7, the little f meaning feldbrauchbar.
I only see those markings, or similar markings on helmets, never on other equipment.

 

[Peter B]

It looks/seems to be Bekleidung Instandsetzungs Amt 7, the little f meaning feldbrauchbar.
I only see those markings, or similar markings on helmets, never on other equipment.

Yes the whole frog is a mystery. I find those other attachments really intriguing as they really look old and kind of like small versions of pickelhaube studs complete with little washers and some kind of figure eight rings. Makes me wonder what someone would hang from their frog? Did some soldier do this himself etc....

 

[SCHUPO]

Your knife was made in the general style of the KS98 (Seitengewehr) and looks to me like a private purchase rather than an item of issue. The frog is too big for this knife as it would wobble around. The black paint is probably original to the knife and scabbard. I would classify it as a "trench knife" rather than a dress item. These things were often worn by WWI soldiers.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Peter B]

Your knife was made in the general style of the KS98 (Seitengewehr) and looks to me like a private purchase rather than an item of issue. The frog is too big for this knife as it would wobble around. The black paint is probably original to the knife and scabbard. I would classify it as a "trench knife" rather than a dress item. These things were often worn by WWI soldiers.

I hope this is helpful.

Thanks!

So anyone know what type of bayonet or possibly sword this large frog might be for?

 

[Steve Nick]

I believe the frog was originally intended for a S98 Seitengewehr. The two top rivets are as issued, I think the two lower ones have been added post issue.

 

[Peter B]

I believe the frog was originally intended for a S98 Seitengewehr. The two top rivets are as issued, I think the two lower ones have been added post issue.

Thanks Steve.

 

[Lars13]

I only see those markings, or similar markings on helmets, never on other equipment.

The Bekleidungs Instandsetzungs Amt VII (of the 7. Armee-Korps) also repaired equipment, I have seen BJA marks on backpacks, and I have a belt that was repaired by BJA VII, and marked accordingly.



On your frog the holes for the middle rivest are still visible, so for me the back of the frog and the BJA VII marking are original WW I, possibly the BJA attached a new piece of leather to the front, but the extra rivets all the way at the bottom seem to be pure decoration only, imo therefor probably added post WW I.

Regards,

Lars

 

[Peter B]

Thanks Lars. I didn't notice the plugged holes on the back for the second set of rivets that were not replaced.

The second set seem to have some sort of purpose to maybe attach something. Maybe someone use it post war as a hunting knife and attached something?

Nevertheless I like the interesting history of the bayonet and frog. If only it could talk.

 

[John Josef]

Any chance you could provide two close-up photos of just the knife shown in two halves blade and handle for me it's impossible to see the details needed to make a proper id. Cheers

 

[Peter B]

Here are some more pictures. Great discussion and thanks to everyone for your input and advice.

 

[Steve Nick]

Peter:

Any S/98 I've seen (and I have a nice Type II sawback version) in my collection will have the date of manufacture on the top of the blade close to the Quillion (cross guard) eg. mine is stamped :
W
16

I suspect yours has a similar marking?

 

[Peter B]

No markings Steve. Maybe private purchase as suggested by Schupo.

 

[Lars13]

but the extra rivets all the way at the bottom seem to be pure decoration only

Or maybe for a similar setup to this?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/25684254248...uid=YR-XRAYrQlm&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[Peter B]

Or maybe for a similar setup to this?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/25684254248...uid=YR-XRAYrQlm&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Yes looks very similar.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

It looks/seems to be Bekleidung Instandsetzungs Amt 7, the little f meaning feldbrauchbar.
I only see those markings, or similar markings on helmets, never on other equipment.

I fully agree with that. This marking is also sometimes found on spiked helmets.

Other variants expressing ‘repair’ or ‘recycling’ exist, here is one for the same A.K.

As for the Feldbrauchbar f, it is frequently found on repaired, restored or reassembled helmets.
F for downgraded helmet for the Parade, to be worn only in the field.


Coming back to the bayonet holder gusset, this is a frog repaired by the AKVII repair shop.
The dagger (normally no slide for the barrel pin) is a good WW1. I'll have a look in Méry's book tonight to see exactly what it is. I have the same one in my collection.