Jager Zu Pferde

S

skelts1974

New member
All,

I would like your comments on the attached photos. They are of a JzP Enlisted helmet made by Otto Nachtigall in Berlin 1915. The seller has indicated that it is in a 'as issued' state and was never 'blued'. I have seen a similar helmet from the same manufacturer currently for sale on a german site. So what is going on here? Quirk of manufacture where good Ol' Otto decided not to 'blue' the helmet? Or has it just worn off or been cleaned back to a flat surface?

Oh the chin strap is a replacement and the kokardes are original, but from another helmet.

Anyone with any ideas?

Regards

Steve
 
Wasn't there a JzP regiment that had un-blued helmets? Perhaps made for that one. (?) Is there any paint present other than the Wappen? With the bare metal on the trim and spike, I'd take the 'as issued' with a grain of salt, favoring instead that somebody cleaned it all off. If you can get your hands on it, take a close look for scraping on the paint of the visor and cape (inside) near the trim, which would indicate removal, also look for layers of paint which would indicate re-painting in those areas. To me, the leather of the liner looks overly new, but then again, it's difficult to tell by photos. The liner in my JzP is almost gone, so I'm not a good judge of liners for those.
Go with your gun feeling. If you think the blue and trim paint was removed, then it probably was. Don't be shy to use a magnifying glass or even a jeweler's loop to look for evidence to support your feelings.
Might be a nice helmet in need of some work, it certainly looks to be structurally sound and clean! :-k

:D Ron
 
Thanks Ron, it is on its way to Australia as we speak. I will let you know the outcome once I take a look at it.

Interesting comments on the JzP Regt with un-blued helmets. Any more info there?

Thanks

Steve
 
skelts1974 said:
Thanks Ron, it is on its way to Australia as we speak. I will let you know the outcome once I take a look at it.

Interesting comments on the JzP Regt with un-blued helmets. Any more info there?

Thanks

Steve
Click to expand...

Once again at work with only my rusty memory, but 3rd regiment comes to mind (???????) I'm probably wrong. If I have time, I'll take a look later at home, but busy days (and nights) with school back in.

:D Ron
 
Ron,

Ack and thanks. My ever patient wife is a teacher (or assistant principal as she loves to remind me) so I know how much you guys actually put in. Something about teachers and soldiers (or in this case ex-soldier / current Reservist - we call them Chocos here).

Will look on the inter-web thingy for 3rd Regt JzP.

Regards

Steve
 
All,

Ok so the JzP has arrived and following advice I have taken a closer look at the shell. There is no indication that it was ever 'blued'. As mentioned before I have seen three other helmets from the same manufacturer in the same 'clean' state.

Of interest I note that there is a JzP by the same manufacturer (Otto Nachtigall) currently for sale on eBay. This one has been 'blued' so my hypothesis that this particular manufacturer did not blue the helmets no longer works. So I guess it is back to the suggestion of it being a peculiarity of a particular regiment.

Does anyone have any evidence or comments on this peculiarity?

Regards

Steve
 
http://www.terraculturae.com/pages/cavalerie-allemande/prusse-les-jager-zu-pferde.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is 36 pages on the Jäger zu Pferde helmets and in general. Absolutely the most detailed information that exists. This website is :thumb up: :thumb up: :thumb up:
(not only on JzPf !!!). You have to register.

They do not mention the non-blued issued helmets of the Jäger zu Pferde Regt Nr 3...or other Regts...
Of course it might well possible that some were issued without the finish. Probably because not every step in manufacturing and finish was done in "the same house".

Rgds,

Francis
 
Khukri said:
http://www.terraculturae.com/pages/cavalerie-allemande/prusse-les-jager-zu-pferde.html

This is 36 pages on the Jäger zu Pferde helmets and in general. Absolutely the most detailed information that exists. This website is :thumb up: :thumb up: :thumb up:
(not only on JzPf !!!). You have to register.

They do not mention the non-blued issued helmets of the Jäger zu Pferde Regt Nr 3...or other Regts...
Of course it might well possible that some were issued without the finish. Probably because not every step in manufacturing and finish was done in "the same house".

Rgds,

Francis
Click to expand...

I'm going from what I remember as a neophyte collector decades ago, a fellow collector mentioned non-blued JzP's, but I've never seen one and have always wondered about it. Thanks!

:D Ron
 
This is an M15 non blued JzP OR's helme, I had one 4 years ago but sold it during the separation melt down. I presently own an M15 OR's Kurassier helme which has never been blued but has the correct Kurassier wappen and profile, and also made by Otto N.. Otto is by far the most common maker of both these Kuras. and JzP M15's. Thousand were brought over to North Am as war bond prizes.
The M15 was never blued no matter for what Regt because they wore the uberzug which covered up all the shiny surfaces. There is no mystery here boys......one good thing is that it has the larger Cav Kokarden although they look in "especially good nick" ??. I would like to see a pic of the non dyed (not black) flesh side of the liner tongues to look at the colour. In saying that, my gut feeling looking at the inside pics tells me the liner is correct. The repros are always dyed in an attempt to simulate the "air burn" of 100 yrs but they can never quite achieve it...not once you have seen an original. The interior colours...green visor and black interior here are correct in my experience.
The steel non blued M15 Kurassier/JzuP OR Prussian helme is the most common of ALL the mounted cavalry units, you constantly see them on Ebay. The pre war blued ones with corresponding brass or silver trim/fittings are the rare ones which command the higher prices. They are always clearly unit marked (OR's) In my humble opinion here Steve...you got a good one and no worries, but do check the kokarden.
PS: On most of these one only finds the size stamped on the underside of the tip of the lobster tail. Sometimes there is a regt stamp alongside or under the kokarden but mostly, not.
PPS: Removable spike top bayonet fitting = M15
 
Well! Thanks Brian! In my mind there was a mystery, but you've cleared that up. It does make sense not to blue a helmet that will have an uberzug on it, since the blue would wear away rather quickly. As I indicated, I never knew about this and this is great information especially since I've run into dealers with these 'elite' JzP helmets for hundreds more than the blued version. This is very good information indeed.

:D Ron
 
Brian, Ron et al,

Thanks for the insight. The kokardes may be modern replacements, when I get home (away on a conference) I will take a photo and post it. There is a 6 or a 9 under the spike base which I found when I removed it for cleaning. The size mark of 56 is stamped on the back visit trim. Other than those marks and the makers mark there is no other stamping that I can see.

I picked this one up from France so am not sure if it is one of the fabled war bonds helmets (oh for a time machine and a wad of cash!). The comments about not blueing due to the use of a helmet cover is quite simply an answer that I had not considered - which given my previous life of service is pretty short sited of me. I remember when I deplyed to the Ghan there were just not enough helmet covers to go around, so many people chose to paint their own camo pattern, or just leave them the raw base Kevlar green.

As someone pointed out to me on one of my previous posts in relation to another helmet the idea of a standard German helmet is a fallacy. Just as it is in our modern armies.

Thanks again for solving my 'mystery'.

Regards

Steve
 
Hey Steve,

I used to love painting my helmets. I have a cool desert 'fishnet' pattern on my ACH (Advanced Combat Helmet... yeah, I know, just can't call it a 'helmet') from Iraq under that dopy GRAY digital cover (go figure), which worked so well with the sand. My CVC helmet from my Paladin has a woodland scheme on it (since we trained in North Central Wisconsin). When I was on M1's and they were turning us into light infantry, I painted a garish 'red arrow' (32d Brigade) flaming into the armor crossed swords behind a tank, destroying it. Yeah, I had to wear a cover over that one for maneuvers! But I still have all of these helmets and others I used. I only wish I'd have kept my ACH box from when it was issued in Mississippi.

:D Ron
 
Ron,

We were (are) never allowed to keep our helmets, officially at least. I have always made it a point to befriend one of two of the Q'ies (quartermaster staff) - to the point that I often still take a coffee or two when I visit my reserve units RQ and always take the time to shoot the shit and listen to his issues (which are always many and varied, but he is a good bloke and I have known him for years). I even take a 6 pack of beer from time to time for him and his lads. As a result I often get stuff that is not common issue or in short supply, so have never gone without a helmet cover (unlike some I know I have never used my rank to get stuf - or at least hope I havent, I am sure it has helped from time to time). As a result my garage and several wardrobes now look like a Q-store. Helen hates it! Hahaha no wonder she takes such an issue with my pickehlaube collection! Just more Army crap to her.

Steve
 
All,

Please see the attached photos of the kokardes. I am not sure if they are modern reproductions of just repaints.

Thoughts? Comments?

Steve
 
skelts1974 said:
Ron,

We were (are) never allowed to keep our helmets, officially at least. I have always made it a point to befriend one of two of the Q'ies (quartermaster staff) - to the point that I often still take a coffee or two when I visit my reserve units RQ and always take the time to shoot the shit and listen to his issues (which are always many and varied, but he is a good bloke and I have known him for years). I even take a 6 pack of beer from time to time for him and his lads. As a result I often get stuff that is not common issue or in short supply, so have never gone without a helmet cover (unlike some I know I have never used my rank to get stuf - or at least hope I havent, I am sure it has helped from time to time). As a result my garage and several wardrobes now look like a Q-store. Helen hates it! Hahaha no wonder she takes such an issue with my pickehlaube collection! Just more Army crap to her.

Steve
Click to expand...

Our QM (supply) only wants a helmet returned which is identical to the one they issued. As long as the size and type are the same, they're good. I have become adept at purchasing a helmet for turn-in, since by the time I'm done, there are always good, clean examples for sale on ebay or elsewhere. I started doing this in the 1980's with my first DH-132 CVC (not to mention 'steel pots'), when I found an identical one at the Oshkosh Air Show, of all places. MY helmet had a Harley Davidson eagle pin attached to one side (since I rode at the time). We had a visiting officer on our tank from Brigade and he asked about the eagle and how I attached it. "I drilled a hole, then bent the pin over." I explained. He went into a tirade about my destruction of government property and such. Then I told him it was ''my" helmet and he said that it was Uncle Sam's. When I told him I'd turned in my issue helmet and kept the (nicer) one from the air show, he understood. After that, I always purchased my own helmets and some uniforms.

Okay, done being off topic.

:D Ron
 
Ron,

Wish issued helmets were easy to buy or cheap here. Like weapons they are controlled stores.

Hey, does anyone have or know where I could get some original kokardes to fix up this helmet?

Regards

Steve
 
Good call, b.loree.

My OR JzP's liner looks the same as yours so I would say original. It looks like that and if you look at it too long, the leather crease-rips.

There were no regiment that had only shiny, imagine how hard to determine officer or enlisted at distances at parades ](*,)

Also; from my experience with JzP and other correspondences, unit-markings tend to only be JZP8 and 9, all others lack unit marks and often times don't even have size markings. 5th are said to have darkened chin scales but thats' contrary to period photos that we've seen.

I can't read French that well so that website will take a while for me, but what I can offer you is Volume 3 of Johan Somers' new series that deals with cavalry and has about 6 pages of the unit (uniforms, helmets, weapons, pre-war organization) then about 2 or so pages for each regiment in further detail. For historical purposes, there are individual books on individual regiments within the unit that trace all commanding officers, numbers, operations, locations, basically war diaries of the regiments. I have the 1JzP, but you should be able to (if interested) find them at this one website that I will look for, where you donate 10 bucks or so and they send you a fully scanned book in a folder to your email. Beware it's in old German language and hand writing.

On an off-topic note I got a veteran award for JzP1 \:D/
 
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