Juncker Lobstertail

Hi Otto,

Thank you for pointing out this helmet, it is a very interesting piece.

I didn't realize that the felgrau rules extended to greying out the cockades as well.

My learning continues!

Cheers,

Laurie
 
Have I got it right that those are NCO's cockades?

The spike is definitely enlisted man's!

The more you look, the more you see!

Cheers,

Laurie
 
So there I was thinking that my view of chivalry was dead and this horse flogged, far more that he should have been, when suddenly here in this post, you all started talking about the NCO cockade again. So I quickly turned to Soncho and asked him to give me my bedpan and point me in the general direction of the windmill. And so once more into the breach Don Quixote rode out to do battle with the NCO cockade.

This is blatantly unfair. Tony is out-of-pocket, and he fervently sees it differently than I. But anyway...

What is an NCO cockade? Where did this term come from? Do we mean it is a single ring 65 mm cockade? I wrote an article on this. But just like my friend Quixote, no one listened or agreed. Everyone remained silent. I guess the hall of mirrors...

Here is a quote from that article:
It then dawned on me that the reason all the period sources talked about the silver ring was that is what they meant. A silver ring not the type of silver ring. What was important was the size of the cockade. 48mm for OR and Portapeeunteroffiziere and 55mm for officer. 65mm helmets were distinguished by a silver ring regardless of type. (No second size for Feldwebel types in 65mm units.) This thought has been agreed to in private correspondence by several leading European dealers. We have 65mm cockades of both kinds, 55mm cockades of both kinds , and 48mm cockades of both kinds
Click to expand...

The article and the entrails of a horse are located at http://www.coljs.com/articles/NCOCockade.htm#_ednref25.

The gray color is certainly different -- -- didn't someone say they saw a group of these?

For I know if I'll only be true to this glorious quest that my heart will lie peaceful and calm when I'm late to my rest.

But as joeyflags said -- -- who cares!
 
The helmet is obviously Jager zu Pferde, the spike is from a Cuirassier helmet. I think the chinscales and cockades are wearing a more recent paint job.
Steve
 
:shock: My God in Heaven :shock:
Sometimes, my tired brain, enters in short circuit with so many information. Sometimes, my translator on line shows me translations that don't make the smallest sense :lol: .
Otto
 
Steve is of course perfectly right. These chinscales, small cockades and spike have nothing to do on this helmet.
Bruno
 
Laurie you cross threaded yourself!

This comment comes from the Pickelhaubes discussion of the Pietsch books.
they were created intentionally for use by NCO's.
Click to expand...
.
The issue here that flies in the face of the great NCO cockade is the question, who was an NCO?
ersatz%20bn%2082.jpg
.
This is a picture of the Unteroffiziere of ersatz Battalion, 82. While this picture is interesting in its own right, would all of these gentlemen rate an
NCO cockade? The Western term NCO does not fit with the Unteroffiziere mit portapee argument. Hand me my soapbox!
 
Hats off to Steve, Bruno and Joe. As always, experience tells!

Well done Steve! Of course you are spot on!

Just in case though, are the feldgrau cockades a complete nonsense or could such a thing be for real?

And to Joe: Thank you, once again. Would a better phrasing be Senior NCO's or Unteroffiziere mit Portepee? Please pardon my German, I am still stumbling through the basics.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
Guy's this is how I am looking at it and why I put in my bid a cuople day's ago.

I totally agree the Kokards are the wrong type and size for this helmet, and it probably would have a leather chinstrap! The best part is I have those parts.

As far as the spike, again I know it is not a JZP spike, but I have come across over the years other JZP helmets with Cuirassier spikes on them, as well as Cuirassier field grey helmets with regular spikes on them. Two thoughts on this, again these helmets are war years helmets and they used the parts they had and or, they are War bond or vet put together helmets, again where parts where just thrown on it.

So in my opionion it is a nice JZP helmet that wih a little loving care can be made right!

any other opionions??

Thanks

James
 
James,

but I have come across over the years other JZP helmets with Cuirassier spikes on them, as well as Cuirassier field grey helmets with regular spikes on them. Two thoughts on this, again these helmets are war years helmets and they used the parts they had and or, they are War bond or vet put together helmets, again where parts where just thrown on it.
Click to expand...
.
I've seen a lot of them too. It's a good question whether there are some sort of put together or due to shortages there were put together that where originally. I don't know. I used to own one of these. I think it was perfectly legitimate, but to what year? You bring up a very good point. I have no definitive answer.
 
How do you like the nerve of this guy offering to buy the helmet off of Ebay! This is against the rules. Too bad that no one ever reports these people. If Ebay knew about it, he would be removed. I will bet that he never expected to see his offer end up on the auction page! These guys really fry me. :x

Chip
 
Yeah, Chip, but he bid $50 on it, that should count for something. I'll bet he would have paid the seller a hunderd bucks for it.
Gus
 
I agree with the assesment that this is a great JzP parts helmet. If you have the parts the shell is a nice find.

Just one thing I think everyone must always bear in mind when looking at helmets in this obsession err I mean hobby of ours. One must not forget there where (are) German collectors of these helmets who had access to lots of helmets and parts after the war. Who is to say that a uninformed 1920-30s Pickelhaube collector found some parts and decided to make himself a nice helmet. Leave that helmet alone for 70+ years and those add on pieces will age like if they originally where on there.

John
 
Hi,
Just read the post about the guy trying to buy it off ebay. No, I am not that Steve. Definitely not my style. Just for kicks, here is my JzP helmet (if I can figure out how to post a picture). Notice mine too has a cuirassier spike. I believe this was done postwar. If you look on the back of the old Rankin/Flayderman book you will see the famous picture of the 10,000 helmets. I believe this is where the majority of spiked helmets in this country came from, especiallly the M15s of all types. I also think a lot of mix and match went on there. Steve
IMG_0768.jpg
 
I am not surprised when I see M15 JzP helmets with Kurassier spikes, and vice versa, which indeed occurs quite often. Huge quantities of these helmets were brought back from Europe after the war. We all know this famous picture of an estimated 20.000 spike helmets piled in a New York warehouse... many of these helmets seemed to be M15 cavalry helmets. That spikes were exchanged and misplaced unwillingly at that time is certain. I would avoid making any conclusion regarding an historical explanation for the existence of these cannibalized helmets...
Bruno
 
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I want to make sure I have this right: The spike is Kurassier, right? But the spike base is JzP, isn't it?

Thank you for bearing with me.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
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