KFG GRN2

S

saracen111

New member
Hi,

I'm new here, but have always been aware of this highly respected forum and the views and opinions you all have. I collected my first pickelhaube in the 1960's and had a life-long facination with them. I only recently took up the hobby once again and wondered if anyone could cast a light onto my latest Grenadier find?

The casque is in a very battered, holed and decrepit state although I'm slowly bringing it back to life with a range of tricks I learned in the Museum restoration world. All the metalwork is good with a plain Grenadier eagle wappen, which is of the more copper coloured brass type. It has an unvented wide, but plain spine, uniquely patterned M91 lugs, original Prussian & state cockades and the remains of brass chinscales. The front visor has quite a wide (12mm) brass edge. The rear visor was totally blackened but by using infra-red I've managed to get a good picture of the lettering which is; "KFG GRN2 1882", which my book tells me is Koenig Friedrich Grenadiers - 2nd Grenadier Regt", HQ at Stettin.

I know that pickelhaubes were messed around with at every new change of style, but this looks never to have been altered and as it is clearly dated "1882", why would it have so many 1891/95 characteristics?

Also, the issuing base stamp is "L.A.". Anyone know which base this was?

Many thanks and best wishes.

Ian, York, UK.
 
Welcome to the forum Ian;
From your description it seems that you have there a bona fide 1891 model. I would not be surprised by the 1883 date since, as you suggest, many new models were recycled from older generations, especially around that time when Pickelhauben were particularly strongly built from thick leather and sturdy metal. Their lifespan was probably longer than that of 1915 models.
There may be a later date stamped somewhere that you have not yet made out. Regarding the LA stamp, considering that the likeliness that the original depot for this helmet was in Los Angeles is relatively remote, I have no clue...
Bruno
 
Could the "LA" stamp actually be an "LG" stamp? After the Franco Prussian War many 1867's were refitted and relabeled for the Landes Gendarmarie or the Feld Gendarmerie. Many of these were refitted with a later model 1871 Grenadier Wappen. I have one fitted for the Feld Gendarmerie:



Apparently this practice continued through Model 1867's, 1871's, and 1887's. The 1883 date would make me assume that this was originally a Model 1871 which had been further modified into a Model 1891. Just guessing?? Do you have any additional photos?

Welcome aboard!

John
 
More pictures would be helpful however I think John is on the right track.

Ian, can I get your permission to add your mark to our list?

shutz5.jpg
 
Thanks for your responses, very encouraging. I did wonder if it could be an 1871 version? Please feel free to use the number. I have a Thuringian helmet (stamped JR153) which is huge in comparison to the 1915 model and has a 115mm heavy brass Prussian wappen. I wondered if this in fact was an 1871 model even though the regiment wasn't formed until 1897.

I attach the "L.A." stamp on the rear visor of the Grenedier casque. I guess Los Angelis would be quite appropriate for those pickelhaubes which ended up with the bikers of the 1960's?

Also a picture of the rear visor of the Thuringian casque which has all sorts of numbers!

Thanks again,
Ian
 
That is definitely an "LA". I really have no idea what that would stand for or what BKA that could possibly represent. The "L" could stand for Landsturm or Landwehr, but that's just a guess. Good luck and keep the rest of us posted on what you find out.
John :?
 
My thought is to Landes. but the second letter does not line up with any of the 12 police brigades. But I still think that John is barking up the correct tree. :-k
 
This is just another guess but on Joe's website there is a Depot Mark "LBA" for Landwehr Bekleidungs Amt. I wonder if it could just be a shortened version of this?
John :-?
 
saracen111 said:
All the metalwork is good with a plain Grenadier eagle wappen, which is of the more copper coloured brass type. I've managed to get a good picture of the lettering which is; "KFG GRN2 1882", which my book tells me is Koenig Friedrich Grenadiers - 2nd Grenadier Regt", HQ at Stettin.

Ian, York, UK.
Click to expand...

Hi Ian, hi Gents,

Sorry, but I am thinking you are on the wrong way concerning this helmet and the interpretation of the unit stamp 8-[

The regimental stamp "KFGGRN2" does not mean the 2. Grenadier Regiment at Stettin but the Kaiser Franz Garde Grenadier Regiment N°2 at Berlin.
Here is a similar one on Joe´s site, unfortunately inserted as the wrong unit (at the Elisabeth KEGGRN3 instead of the Franz KFGGRN2)...The second letter is definitely the letter "F" and not "E"....

Keggr2.jpg


At this date (1882), all the 4 Garde Grenadier Regiments still wore the old Grenadier Wappen which has been replaced by the new Garde Wappen with Suum Cuique star by AKO of the 28.8.1889.

Further, the Grenadier Regiments 1 to 12 all wore first the "old regiments" Wappen with FWR monogram on the eagle.
This Wappen was slowly replaced by the new Grenadier wide eagle between the dates of 4.5.1897 (pomeranian GR2) till 29.8.1913 (silesian GR11). As an exception, the KIR145 replaced its Linien Adler very lately with the same wide Grenadier eagle (september 1913).


Philippe
:wink:
 
Here is a similar one on Joe´s site, unfortunately insered at the wrong unit (at the Elisabeth KEGGRN3 instead of the Franz KFGGRN2)...The second letter is definitly the letter "F" and not "E"....
Click to expand...

I don't know PhilippeI think it is in the right spot. Look at the last number. 2 or 3????

Kaiser Alexander-Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr.1 "Alexander", "Kartoffelschäler"
Kaiser Franz-Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 2 "Franzer", "Bluthunde"
Königin-Elisabeth-Grenadier-Regiment Nr.3 "Elisabether", "Kronen Esel"
Königin-Augusta-Grenadier-Regiment Nr.4 "Augustaner"
Click to expand...


I updated the site so that we can compare the two.
kfggr2
Keggr2.jpg
 
That's what we need is more opinions! I can see it both ways. The longer I look at it the more it looks like 2.
 
I vote for 2, too. And look at the second letter: it looks like it is an F, just like on the other stamp, with a "tail" coming down on the right side from the upper line.
It remains that Philippe identified the correct regiment!
 
The problem Joe, is that (looking at the 2 pics side by side) the coloured pic shows a crease in the leather which at first glance makes the "2" look like a "3". It is very deceptive to the eye and has led to this mistaken identity.
 
Thanks Philippe and everyone for this. I agree it is definately a 2 on both.

I attach a picture of the early wappen which fits in with what Philippe says. It is very curved and the picture gives the impression of being small, which it isn't.

The casque is presently undergoing some delicate treatment as some parts have the consistency of burnt toast (with my limited culinmery skills, I speak from experience!).

Ian
 
PS - The only reason I presumed it to be 2 Grenadier Koenig Friedrich was that the standard wappen table (as Trawnik's book) confirms the same wappen plate as i have, whilst the 2nd Guard Grenadier Regt "Kaiser franz" as Philippe suggests is shown with wappen No. 1 with the additional central star embelishment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top