Lacquered felt helmet

R

Robert

New member
I could not resist this one :D :D.

A felt ersatz helmet lacquered on the outside. It is stamped by the 3rd Bavarian inf reg., 2nd ersatz batl. The stamps are placed in the liner, most likeley because the insides of the visors are blackened. There is also a makers mark on the felt near the disc (I believe the second line reads "München", followed by the year) and the name "Eberl Math." is written with pencil on the inside. The letters "WS" have been sewn onto the liner too - any ideas about this?

The condition is really nice with no wear visible, the shell is glossy outside and the fittings have very lightly darkened. I won't attempt any restoration and will just leave the helmet as it is.

The helmet also came with the Überzug. I guess my next headache will be about finding a matching chin strap..

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Great in every respect: condition, markings... Congratulations!
Double stitching marks on the front visor? Re-used parts?
 
Superfine helmet! :bravo:

I believe the maker's Mark says Schweitzer -- it is not on the list. And I think the date on the bottom is 1914. Can you send me a bigger picture? May I add it to the list? :la:

I have never seen such a unit Mark! Can you send me a better picture? May I add it to the list? :la:

I think the WS is simply some sort of a personalized name tag. What do you think is up with the white cords on the Uberzug? These hooks look a little different than some Bavarians as I would have expected them to be painted black. Are they magnetic? This is definitely worth finding a good chinstrap! :thumbleft:
 
Double stitching marks on the front visor? Re-used parts?
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Those are surface marks from some sort of machine , perhaps for stitching or preparing the holes. I will make some close-ups of that and also the stamps tomorrow when sunlight is back. "Schweitzer" could be the right name, good observation!

The cord adjusts the circumference - is that unusual? I know really nothing, this is my first Überzug. The hooks are made of brass. I´ll make pictures of that too!
 
Some more pictures. Close-ups in good light bring out all the tiny nicks.

If the pictures of the stamps are well enough, you can use them wherever you want. The makers mark is difficult to read, but it does look like schweizer or Schwarzer.

I made the pictures of the Überzug in daylight wich makes them look somewhat pale but gave the best results. Actually the color is a darker green tan. The cord is not really white but rather a natural undyied color.

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Robert,

Thank you, the pictures are perfect. :headbang: I try to coax out a little bit more from the makers name with no success. It is almost like it is short a letter. However, it is too faint for me to tell for sure.

That nice Uberzug is a bit different. There just seem to have been many many variants. I always thought Bavaria had generally black painted steel hooks that were painted. The drawstring was not universally applied, and seems to be a relative rarity. What strikes me the most about this is the way that the hooks are attached to the inside of the hem. Almost like this was a high-class cover.
There are so many different ways that the hooks were attached.
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Thanks for the infos about covers! Evidently this is a science for its own. According to the seller, the helmet and the cover were found together in a household clearance and probably had lain in a cabinet for decades. I´ll leave them together instead of selling the cover which I had originally planned.

Until now I have not cared about complementing missing cockades or chin straps of my helmets. Particularly the straps are quite sought after $$$! Maybe it is easier to buy a complete helmet just to strip of the thing and resell afterwards. Even the state cockade isn't easy to find, none of the shops have one so I'll have to watch the bay till one washes ashore.
 
I got the regimental history now and discussed the topic with some guys and also in another forum.

Personally I did not know the background of the ersatz battailons, so I´ll hand on FYI.

Originally, each Regiment had only one ersatz battailon. This acted as a conduit in which the fresh recruits were trained. In 1915, most regiments received a second ersatz battailon, simply due to the large demand of replacements. The 3rd Bavarian Inf. Regiment assembled a second ersatz battailon too, which lasted until March 1918 when it was disbanded. BTW, ersatz battailons were managed and commanded by the brigade, not the regiment, which implies a certain independence.

Normal soldiers would not stay in the ersatz battailon for a longer time and would be transferred to the regular battailons. But the ersatz battailons also had a permanent skeleton staff of instructors, NCOs etc. So probably the helmet belonged to such a staff member.
 
Robert,

Those regimental histories are so cool, but they also vary from very good to not so good. The entire Ersatz battalion thing was complex and changed.

The army corps district was responsible for the recruiting, equipping and training of a certain number of troops. Upon mobilization different branches left behind a cadre to provide it with reinforcements. These were known by different names for different types of units. An Ersatz (replacement) battalion was the cadre left behind in an infantry or foot artillery regiment. An Ersatz company was the cadre left behind for a Jäger or pioneer battalion.
An Ersatz Eskadron was the cadre left behind for a cavalry regiment. An Ersatz Abteilung was used for a field artillery regiment. Many of the active regiments had two Ersatz battalions. These were used not only for recruits but also for forming new units. Occasionally, recruits were sent to different regiments than their original Ersatz battalion. While active infantry regiments had two Ersatz battalions, Reserve and Landwehr regiments had only one each.374
Each Ersatz battalion normally had three or four Ersatz companies, a convalescent company, a company of men fit only for garrison duty, and one or two recruit depots (Rekruten Depots). Untrained recruits were initially sent to the recruit depot. After a preliminary course, they were moved into an Ersatz company regularly of 100 to 200 men.375
This system stayed in place only until the beginning of 1915. Up until that time recruits moved directly from their regimental depot to the units at the front. A new organization known as a field recruit depot (Feld Rekruten Depot) became an advanced replacement center at the front. After one to three months training at home in the Ersatz battalion, recruits were sent to the field recruit depot where their training was completed. From there they moved to the front. Wounded soldiers returning to the front would also pass through the field recruit depot to learn the latest techniques. There were times when entire recruit companies were used to fill the gap in the line during critical times. Most field recruit depots were associated with divisions. Recruits arrived as a combined draft from the home depots and were distributed as required among the regiments. Therefore, you can easily see how someone who trained with Regiment A. in the homeland could easily be assigned to Regiment B. in the field.376
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ersatz battailons were managed and commanded by the brigade, not the regiment
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Yes but you have to be very careful about which brigade. We are not talking about maneuver brigades but the brigades of the Army Corps district.

Each of these Army Corps districts was subdivided into four or five brigade districts. Landwehrinspektions were alternative higher headquarters that replaced brigade headquarters in the more populous (and popular) areas of the empire. The commander of the Landwehrinspektion was a Generalmajor. Each brigade district was further subdivided into two or three Landwehrbizirke. Each Landwehrbizirk had a small permanent staff. The corps commander was responsible for tactical -- not technical --training of the soldiers in his region. Each corps was administered independently. In Prussia alone, there were 212 Bezirks-Kommando (or Landwehrbizirke) with assigned personnel of about 6000 folks. Landwehrbizirke were either subordinated to an infantry brigade headquarters or a Landwehrinspektion.370
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Have I just muddied the water??
 
Joe, thanks for the extra info! The whole replacement topic is quite confusing. Before this thread I thought that ersatz btl. were fixed attached to (and commanded by) their regiments - period. But actually the scheme was evidently quite flexible.

I'll give the regimental history a 4 out of 10 - it is really a simple list of movements, battles, and an appendix of names. It lists casualities in the ersatz Btl. as well, but mentions that only war participants that had been transferred back from active duty are mentioned.

Considering that a regiment of 4 regular Btls. had 2 ersatz Btls., and that these were only transitional units for new recruits, they must have had quite a wastage! This regiment had more than 12.700 losses only counting the dead and missing, not even the wounded.
 
It gets even more confusing. There were brigade Ersatz battalions early in the war that actually deployed! Then there were actually Ersatz units up to division size. When you start talking Ersatz it can become extremely difficult to know who or what you are talking about. the scheme was quite flexible, but was also different in different areas.

I don't know if I accept those casualty figures at face value. It seems there were many ways to count noses and I have to wonder, given you our explanation, whether some of these guys were double counted. I don't know but even Jack Sheldon has left these casualty figures with a great deal of doubt and confusion. :cool:
 
Congrats Robert..a fantastic piece! So unique too in its markings, construction and uberzug. They do not come much better than this. Brian
 
I don't know if I accept those casualty figures at face value. It seems there were many ways to count noses and I have to wonder, given you our explanation, whether some of these guys were double counted. I don't know but even Jack Sheldon has left these casualty figures with a great deal of doubt and confusion.
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I took a closer look at the casualities list in the regimental history. This lists every dead & missed in action by name, rank and date, which ought to be more reliable. It is 143 pages long and by counting through a few pages I calculated an average of 38 names per page. This sums up to approximately 5434. The author writed of 16256 total casualities, including wounded.

5434 dead & missed, 10822 wounded - still a high number, but more reasonable and better documented. I dont know were the figure of 12711 on the memorial comes from.

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Hey Robert,
I think it is possible for some casulties to be counted twice, if the soldier is wounded, and later dies of those wounds. Accounting systems on paper are very easy to get messed up, especially during a time of confussion.
Gus
 
Astounding-I cant imagine a helmet this old in such amazing condition ! and the pirices they get on Ebay for beat-to @#%* crap ! remarkable preservation.
 
I have never seen such an Arty helmet Pointy. By the way Robert, those marks on the front visor were made by the foot of the sewing machine as it passed along the visor securing it to the shell. Very unusal for these to appear on the outside when 99.9% of the time the marks are on the inside of the shell rim and hidden by the liner. I do not see any marks along your rear visor. Great inside pic of the M91 side post prongs...for our new collectors note the Bavarian custom of only one long brass prong bent over on the inside. All other states use 2. Brian
 
Here is a completely new piece of information:

On 22 March 1917. The felt helmets that were covered in lacquer were ordered by the Prussian war Minister to be reduced and the lacquer removed from the helmets for use in the munitions industry. Apparently some survived! At least with our Bavarian friends.
 
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